Talk:Aquatic ape hypothesis

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New version - again![edit]

Let's have a little fun with the denier. Please explain again just how the below version is POV-pushing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CEngelbrecht (talkcontribs) 19:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

References

signing (with falsified date to match original end of discussion) for archiver. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:06, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

(cont.)[edit]

Suggestion - new subsection - anthropological consensus on human evolution[edit]

I'm still trying to do something about this hopeless, negatively biased article. I propose to lead the section about the actual hypothesis/ses by summarizing the contemporary consensus on human evolution, as expressed by the scientific field of anthropology. This is to illustrate the background for Elaine Morgan's AAH, since she based her work on what she perceived as shortcomings to parts of that consensus, straw man arguments and whatnot. Whether we then further detail her challenging of this consensus in the following sections is for a different discussion. If you skeptics really desire an optimal, non-POV article detailing what the hell all this boohah is about, let's start with this, since it should contain the fewest controversies (unless creationists are also hanging out in here, which is not bloody unlikely the way things have been going).

signing (with falsified date to match the original conclusion of this discussion) for archiver. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:05, 3 November 2013‎ (UTC)

Wading Hypothesis of Bipedal Origins[edit]

The section which describes the wading hypothesis of bipedal origins needs improving in my opinion. It is currently rather vague in what it is supposed to be describing, it does not list the strongest arguments in favour of the idea and gives some pretty weak counter-arguments without any caveats.

They key observation in its favour is that all extant great apes that are quadrupedal on dry land will switch to bipedalism in waist deep water with 100% reliability. This will be bipedal locomotion, not just posture, it will be without any support of the forelimbs and will continue for as long as the conditions prevail. No other scenario will induce Pan, Gorilla or Pongo to move bipedally so easily or predictably and this is not true of any other mammalian taxon. Moving bipedally in waist deep water provides the simplest, most clear cut survival benefit imaginable - the animal can continue to breath.

The counter argument listed in the article that "bipedalism also gives many advantages on land, particularly lower energy expenditure and the ability of long-distance running—which humans do better than most terrestrial mammals" is weak. The energy efficiency only really works in flat, firm, vegetation-free substrates (e.g. on a dried out river bed or on a sandy beach right by the water's edge) and the ER hypothesis has a number of substantial problems (e.g. predation, how to replace water loss and the role of women and infants.)

The argument that "the AAH suggest that bipedalism is disadvantageous when comparing humans to medium-sized, terrestrial quadrupeds" is a red-herring invented by John Langdon, cherry picked from one of Elaine Morgan's books. Most waterside proponents today do not depend on that argument and would argue that the LCA of humans and chimps were wading-climbing apes exhibiting some kind of bipedalism, but not the current modern energy-efficient kind. To argue for early brachiation as the primary driver of bipedalism does not explain why chimps and gorillas and (to a lesser extent) orang utans reverted to quadrupedalism. The wading hypothesis answers this point easily.

The argument that "the elongated lower limbs of humans, which is explained by AAH proponents as improving swimming speeds" is a misrepresentation. Only a few proponents hold that view.

It is correct to say that "there is no single accepted explanation for human bipedalism" but a more scholarly list (of over 30+) of them could be provided. The wading hypothesis compares favourably with most of them as shown here.

A paper on the Wading Hypotheses of Human Bipedal Origins was recently published in the journal Human Evolution.

Abstract

At least 30 or so distinct ideas have been published in the scientific literature since the time of Charles Darwin pertaining to the origin of human bipedal locomotion and attempting to explain it in evolutionary terms. Some of them overlap and are complementary, whilst others vary widely and are contradictory. Each of them has strengths and weaknesses but there have been no published attempts at objectively comparing and evaluating them. Their popularity, or otherwise, according to the way they are presented in university texts, appears to be largely a matter of what is currently appealing to authorities of the day. One idea that has never been popular is the Wading Hypothesis. Here the idea is described in detail, discussed, assessed and objectively compared to other ideas, including those that are de rigeur today. Contrary to the mainstream view in anthropology today, it is argued here that there is nothing in the literature that adequately rejects the wading hypothesis, and that it is actually one of the strongest ideas yet proposed, deserving far more serious attention than it has been afforded to date. A “River Apes … Coastal People” wading model is introduced. This three-phased model of the evolution of human bipedality proposes a wading-climbing Last Common Ancestor of Gorilla-Pan-Homo (LCA-GPH), a seasonally flooded gallery forest habitat for the evolution of hominin bipedality, and a largely coastal foraging phase to optimise our modern efficient, striding gait.

Kuliukas, A.V. Wading Hypotheses of the Origin of Human Bipedalism. Human Evolution 28 (3-4):213-236, (2013).

AlgisKuliukas (talk) 05:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

By the very abstract, it essentially removes itself from contention because we present the mainstream views, not the views that say they mainstream shouldnt be considered. Also, if you are the A V Kuliukas of the paper, please note our conflict of interest policy and refrain from using Wikipedia as a platform to promote your fringe ideas. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Where, in the abstract (or the paper) does it "say the mainstream shouldn't be considered"? It doesn't. The paper considers all of the 30+ ideas more thoroughly than any other paper I've read on the subject (and, as my PhD is on this subject, I've read most of them.)
Yes, I am the author of the paper. I offer it as an example of a peer reviewed paper published in the scientific literature on the very subject which this topic refers. The article at the moment cites no such paper and so I think it would improve its scholarliness to do so. I posted it here on the Talk page (and not on the page itself) because of the COI point, in the hope that some impartial editor might use it.
The idea that wading may have had a contributory role in the origin in human bipedalism is backed by more evidence than most of the other 30+ ideas. Your labelling it as "fringe" simply indicates a bias. Carsten Niemitz, Colin Groves, Richard Wrangham, Chris Stringer and Sir David Attenborough are just some respected authorities on evolution who would not share your view.
AlgisKuliukas (talk) 09:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Adding rebuttal by Vaneechoutte et al.[edit]

In the "theoretical considerations" chapter, Langdon rightfully receive considerable space presenting his critisism of the eBook: "Was Man more aquatic in the past? Fifty years after Alister Hardy,Waterside Hypotheses of Human Evolution"

The rebuttal by Vaneechoutte and coauthors is merely referenced, however, and not stated in the text. This seems unbalanced. Unless challenged here, I will integrate some of the rebuttals from this reference in the "Theoretical considerations" chapter in a point-by-point style within next week.

Yours, PhD Frank Helle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrankHansen99 (talkcontribs) 10:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

consider the proposal challenged. unless an academic third party asserts the validity of the the "rebuttal", we are not here to present the FRINGE case, particularly in a point by point style. Please read WP:GEVAL and WP:OR .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)