Talk:Arab–Israeli conflict

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Too few dead[edit]

You report 90,000 in all the arab-israelian war since the start. Are you serious or what? There have been at least the same deaths only in the last Lebanon war and the total estimates are at least 2 million deaths — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:05, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

You can't be serious
Those numbers are directly from your head — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:34, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

2million??? your high count — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Cablegram dated 15 May 1948 from Secretary of the Arab League to the UN.[edit]


I revised the article in two ways
1 My understanding is that there were two separate Mandates and most articles on Wikipedia appear to be based on that basis e.g the article on Mandatory Palestine. If my understanding is correct a reference to Mandate Palestine west of the Jordan River is a tautology. This does not particularly concern me and for the time being at least, I can let the matter rest here.
2 My second revision dealt with the contents of the Cablegram dated 15 May 1948. While the Arab States stated that the only fair and just solution to the problem of Palestine is the creation of United State of Palestine, Nowhere in the Cablegram is it stated that it is their aim of creating a "United State of Palestine", in place of the Jewish and Arab, two-state, UN Plan. Rather the Arab Governments say that they find themselves compelled to intervene for the sole purpose of restoring peace and security and establishing law and order in Palestine.

I note that the paragraph talks about a Jewish and Arab, two-state, UN Plan. A reading of the Report of 3 September 1947, and of the Resolution of 29 November 1947 indicates it is rather an Arab and Jewish, two-state, UN Plan. I shall make the appropriate amendment. I await you comment on the point 2. Trahelliven (talk) 02:28, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

We are not at cross-purposes, then. My reservations are solely in regard to point 1; I have no objection to your clarifying point 2. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Involvement of paramilitaries[edit]

The Arab-Israeli conflict isn't just a conflict between the military of Israel and the militaries of the Arab states. If this article is about the whole conflict since 1947 then the infobox should include the host of paramilitary groups involved.

On the Israeli/Jewish side during the 1947-1948 war we had Haganah, Irgun and Lehi and afterwards the Jewish Underground, Kingdom of Israel and South Lebanon Army, among others. On the other side we hav' Arab nationalist paramilitaries, Palestinian nationalist paramilitaries and Islamist paramilitaries. They include Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Arab Liberation Army, Army of Islam (Gaza Strip), Army of the Holy War, DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Palestine Liberation Front, PFLP and a slew of others. Only some of theze groups hav' been supported by the Arab League. ~Asarlaí 18:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Article name[edit]

This article should be called the Muslim Arab / Israeli conflict (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

That isn't how it's commonly referred to. --Jethro B 18:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

There are both Christian and Muslim Arabs involved in the conflict. Calling it the Muslim Arab/Israeli conflict would be fundamentally misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theapplethief (talkcontribs) 22:52, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

There were plenty of Christian Arabs involved in the conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

recent edits[edit]

I am troubled by some recent edits by User:Theapplethief:

  • I have reverted the addition of a paragraph about the viewpoints of Palestinian Christians.[1] My concern is that this section is "Religious aspects of the conflict" and describes religious views of Christians, Jews and Muslims. The paragraph added described views that were political rather than religious.
  • I am concerned about the introduction of casualty figures from If Americans Knew[2]. I doubt that this organization is an RS. These figures appear to come from B'tselem. If we keep these figures then we need to attribute them to B'tselem and, ideally, the citation should be to a newspaper article or a similar reliable secondary source rather than to an advocacy organization.
  • I am not sure that Rachel Corrie needs to be discussed in an overview of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.[3]. I don't think this edit presents the case in a neutral way.GabrielF (talk) 05:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

You are probably right about changing the citations to B'tselem. I do disagree about Rachel Corrie. The page consists of numerous references to violence coming either side of the conflict, and this particular detail is no exception. As for the edit regarding Palestinian Christians, I feel that the group as a whole has been neglected on this page, and I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss the possibility of adding it in, for the sake of being both thorough and neutral.Theapplethief (talk) 23:10, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't object to adding information about Palestinian Christians, but I don't think that its appropriate in a section that deals specifically with religious viewpoints. I am ambivalent about including Corrie and would like to hear other opinions. GabrielF (talk) 23:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I would like to point out, that when discussing Christian Zionists, it is pointed out that they support the State of Israel, and they enumerate the reasons. But I think that it could give the false impression that all Christians in the region are supportive of the state of Israel. I do understand your point though, and I would appreciate any help or advice on how to go about including the information, since I'm still learning.Theapplethief (talk) 23:40, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to add that I find the lack only mention of Christians within the religious aspects of the conflict header being in relation to Christian Zionists very problematic. It's a tautology - of course Christian Zionists support Israel because that is what a Zionist is, a supporter of Israel by definition. Referring to Christian Zionists in such a way suggests that Christians tend to support Israel which is a false proposition. It would be like writing "Christian anti-Zionists support Palestine" and that being the only mention of Christianity in this context: hugely misleading. The founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was himself a Christian. While I understand that could be seen as political rather than religious, on the other hand the biggest Arab city within Israel is Nazareth, which is very much a Christian area, arguably the Christian significance explaining its survival while other Arab populations haven't remained within the borders of Israel. These Christians refer to themselves as Palestinians. Also, Bethlehem, while not holding anywhere like the contention of Jerusalem, is a holy site that presents a religious interest towards the issue. Many Christians still live in that area and go through the same treatment as Palestinian Muslims. I'm not going to edit this article, but I feel either the mention of Christian Zionism should be taken out and that paragraph be specific to Judaism and Islam, or a more expanded discussion of Christianity and the area is needed - explaining Nazereth, Bethlehem, Palestinian Christians in general (that exclusion is really quite shocking), the treatment of Christians within Israel and Palestine , Christian interest from outside the area (e.g. recent events at St James's in London, presence of the Church of Scotland being some examples), the Lebanese Civil War and the tension between Maronite Christians and the growing Palestinian population at the time, treatment of Christians and Islamization in Gaza and yes, Christian Zionism. It could be another paragraph or article in itself. Christianity within this debate is a lot less clear cut and a smaller voice than the other two Aramaic religions, but this isn't a reason for trivialisation or unbalanced statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:33, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Israel-Palestine articles and their overwhelmingly favorable bias towards the Jewish side versus Muslims makes you want to give up wikipedia due to frustrating pro-Western, pro-Israel bias[edit]

I've been a wikipedian for a while (check my join-date) and I've been watching many articles closely related to Zionism, Judaism, and Palestine to keep creeping bias from setting in. From being forced to quote Simon Wiesenthal's biography as a "valid cited source" to having any edit of mine reverted that brings to light unfavorable viewpoints on Holocaust survivors (of whom many have profited heavily from their tragedy, as per Finkelstein and Chomsky) to having to remove most of the weasel words from the "Press TV" article that frame it in the context of "Pro-Palestinian/Pro-Israeli" there is no doubt a heavy favorable bias towards Jews on Wikipedia.

I personally think this is not part of some "Jewish conspiracy" nonsense, but rather the fact that at least 80% of wiki's edits are from white college-educated western males, so they have the biases of that particular social class.

Anyway, as soon as I seen the title "Islamic terrorism" for an article, then "Jewish religious terrorism", I've come under the assumption that this encyclopedia will never fully reflect reality, or at least, accurately and report it in a non-biased fashion.

I'm going to step-up my patrol of "Israel-Palestine/Muslim-Jew" articles to be vigilant against the biases that often get ignored (or in fact, are there on purpose to portray a certain opinion) But if wikipedia becomes any more pro-Israeli or pro-Jewish (rather than non-biased) when it comes to dealing with Muslims or Israel, I may just throw in my towel.

Come on: Can we attempt to recruit more English speaking Muslims onto wiki, if that's the only way to counter this pro-western, pro-white, pro-jewish bias?

Solntsa90 (talk) 04:44, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

To further my point, the original "Culture of Israel" article had not a single mention of Arabs, Palestinians, or Islam--despite these demographic groups taking up as much as >20% of the population.

If you notice, all the additions on minorities and Palestinians in the first paragraph were originally put in by me.

Tell me how this isn't biased again?

Solntsa90 (talk) 04:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Correcting map of the Arab–Israeli conflict[edit]

Current map
New base map
  Arab League countries
  Arab League countries that have been in war with Israel
  Gaza and the West Bank (State of Palestine)

There have been discussions in a few pages I noticed on fixing the map on the top right. I figure that this talk page is a better place for this discussion.

I will be working on the new map based on the second image on the right. There are a few things I'm sure to do.

  • Fixing national boundary and Arab League countries. This means adding South Sudan, and excluding Western Sahara and South Sudan as members of the league.
  • Not adding text or captions, making it language-neutral.

However, there is one point that I'm unsure about its factual accuracy and necessity to be represented on the map, thus I ask for your opinions.

...and thus those countries should be coloured dark green. If not, how to rephrase the dark green category, which now reads "have been in war with Israel"? Hytar (talk) 12:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

A good source is required for each and every country that was supposedly at war but wasn't one of the obvious combatants. Providing arms certainly does not count, unless you want to include the USA and other western countries that supplied arms to Israel. Zerotalk 13:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I'd leave the war with Israel colorations as is, just do the South Sudan correction - even Western Sahara I'd be tempted to leave since it's de facto part of Morocco (and the Arab League supports that claim), perhaps make it stripped to show its disputed status. Kmusser (talk) 14:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
If the article on Arab League is a reference, I would not shade Western Sahara green, or even stripe it with grey. True, even if the Arab League hopes that Western Sahara is part of Morocco, it is still disputed by many international bodies.
So as of now, the decision is to remain the dark-green countries but fix the green ones to exclude South Sudan and Western Sahara. I'll open this topic for one more day, then I'll get to work. Hytar (talk) 11:32, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the long pause, but I have updated the base map and captions as shown in the second picture. What do you think? Is it ready to replace the current map? Hytar (talk) 11:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Southern Syria[edit]

The name "Southern Syria" was introduced into this article about a year ago, largely replacing "Palestine". I object to it on several grounds. (1) There was never a political entity of that name. (2) For the last decades of the Ottoman period, the official name Syria (Sam) applied to the vilayet of that name which corresponded roughly to modern Syria and Jordan. It did not extend west of the Jordan River, as in this map. (3) Since "Syria" in English writing sometimes referred to the entire region between Turkey and Sinai, the phrase "southern Syria" (usually small "s") can be found referring to this region, but this phase was much less common than "Palestine" and often, during the same time period, "Syria" was not taken to include Palestine (search for the phrases "Syria and Palestine" and "Palestine and Syria" in books of the 19th century to find a large number of examples). That is, the meaning of "southern Syria" was not universally understood in the pre-mandate period. (4) The great majority of modern scholars writing in English about this time period, including Israeli scholars, refer to this region as Palestine just like most writers of the time did. (5) Since the modern meaning of the phrase "southern Syria" is entirely different, by using it we are only causing confusion in the minds of casual visitors to the page. Zerotalk 18:51, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. There is campaign to remove "Palestine" and "Palestinians" from articles. --IRISZOOM (talk) 07:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
From what I have seen, it's nearly only Greyshark09 who is replacing "Palestine" with "Ottoman Syria" and "Southern Syria". It's really plenty of changes. It also seems that he thinks Palestine and Southern Syria are the same regions. I've seen him put it in parentheses and how he describes it. Others are changing it to "Eretz Israel".
Just compare this to this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 02:47, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Here is another example. This is from some years ago. Not only is it wrong not to use the term overwhelmingly used (Palestine) but it also confuses much, which this example clearly shows. --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:10, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I have changed it now. Palestine is the common term and well-defined. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Map and light green Arab League members[edit]

I have wondered for a long time why we show the light green countries on this map. I finally took the time to read through the archives, and it seems that the reason is because the Arab League made a statement similar to declaring war on Israel in 1948.

But it turns out the none of the light green countries had joined the Arab League at that time - they joined in the 1950s onwards.

So unless someone can give another good reason (i.e. one which wouldn't logically mean we should add Israel's political supporters in light blue), I will remove the light green countries from the map.

Oncenawhile (talk) 23:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposed replacement picture.
Thinking about this in more detail, the only countries who went directly to all-out war were Egypt, Syria and to a lesser extent Iraq.
Lebanon had a well-documented pre-agreement with Israel prior to the 1948 war, and did not participate in 1967 and 1973.
Jordan also had a pre-agreement in 1948, and did not participate in 1973. In 1967 it was solely on the defensive.
All the rest of the countries appear to be volunteer forces instead of full governmental mobilisation. Does anyone have any sources to suggest the opposite?
I propose we should have Egypt, Syria and Iraq in one colour, Lebanon and Jordan in another, and either (a) all of the rest in one colour with Israel's allies and suppliers in another colour or (b) none of the additional supporter countries highlighted.
Oncenawhile (talk) 08:33, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Disagree. Leaves out pertinent information on those countries that had technically been at a state of war against Israel and contributed to wars against Israel (e.g. military supplies, oil embargo, etc.). Plot Spoiler (talk) 03:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I presume this means you prefer the version where we add the US in light blue (military supplies, economic embargoes), and the UK and France in dark blue (fought alongside in the "Second Arab-Israeli War")? Oncenawhile (talk) 06:22, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Haha, no. These countries weren't allied with Israel or openly supporting Israeli warfare against its Arab adversaries. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:39, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes they were. Please see well sourced info at Yom_Kippur_War#Aid_to_Israel and Suez_Crisis#Forces. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
To this same point, can anyone provide an WP:RS showing that the "Arab League" were ever at war with Israel? From what I can see, the declarations of war were country specific, and the idea that the Arab League went to war was based on incorrect dating (recently discredited) of the Azzam Pasha quotation.
If no supporting sources are forthcoming, I will remove the references and also the map as misleading.
Oncenawhile (talk) 07:46, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
No, you won't continue to make unilateral changes on what largely appears to be your own original research. Plot Spoiler (talk)
So to summarise, I asked you to provide RS to support uncited statements, and you said simply "no". I read that as a statement that you believe it cannot be supported. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Actually the map is original research and it needs to be justified or removed. Oncenawhiles evidence based concerns are valid. Either the evidence exists and it is produced, in which case there is no longer an issue. Or the source evidence is not there and the material should be removed. Dlv999 (talk) 15:54, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I left "citation needed" re certain statements re the Arab League's participation, and after a few days of silence have now removed them.

I'll leave the map for another day or so, but unless someone can explain, for example, what on earth Comoros has to do with this conflict, the map will be removed. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:02, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, map now removed. New thread below re replacement. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Map for summary box[edit]

Should the new map include either:

  • Every country involved, such as those who provided military support (e.g. the United States and Soviet Union), those who fought alongside in specific arenas (UK, France, Soviet Union), and those from whom volunteers came to fight (e.g. the countries of the Mahal, and the same on the Arab side)?, or
  • Only those countries primarily involved, and if so how do we define primary involvement given this conflict has been going for more than 65 years?

Any comments would be helpful. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

See some suggestions on this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#How_to_summarise_a_65+_year_complex_conflict_in_a_single_map?. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Because this is such a controversial question without a clear answer, I think we should leave the article as it is now. The article itself addresses which countries Israel has had a war/conflict with, and to which extent. However, I'm not opposed to any of your suggestion. Yambaram (talk) 13:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)