Talk:Arabs/Archive 7

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BRAZIL

  • brazil is the most arab country in the world out of arab world —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.33.193 (talk) 20:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
well, you will need to now the population of brazil compared to its Arab population... -- 16:56, 22 September 2010 User:Arab League

The figure given for the Brazilian Arab population appears to be wrong by a factor of 10. It should be 1.2 million not 12 million. See article (and references) on Brazilian ethnicity.

I will change it soon unless anyone objects here.

Keithbowden (talk) 13:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

According to official estimates from the "Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estatística", the percentage of people That has given their ethnicity as Arabic was about 0.48% from a total of 34 million that has chosen to answer the question. So that makes them 0.0048*34,000,000=164,000
Correct if I'm wrong :) Ravi84m (talk) 16:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

That study wasn't a census, it would be also naive to think you could count people according to origin that way. The Brazilian census doesn't include the number of people according to origin, that link there was only a study. I mean, 64% of the people answered to be of Brazilian ethnicity. So what's Brazilian ethnicity? Does that mean they are native-brazilians? According to your thinking 64& of the Brazilian population would be native-brazilians... That doesn't sound right...

http://veja.abril.com.br/041000/p_122.html read this whole article and you'll see that there are circa 7 millions lebanese-brazilians. This doesn't include Arabs from other countries. I guess you understand Portuguese. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200505/the.arabs.of.brazil.htm http://cags.org.ae/cbc01ar.pdf This one claims there are circa 12 million brazilians of arab descent.

http://wlcu-lb.com/en/articles/brazil-has-more-lebanese-than-lebanon/

Youri —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.113.206 (talk) 04:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi anon. I would like to invite you to indulge yourself here if you're still interested in this subject :) Rafy talk 07:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

There is still a huge discrepancy between the two figures given for the number of Arabs in Brazil: one says 164,000 and the other 6,000,000. 164,000 is obviously extremely wrong: the study that is referenced only takes into account about 34 million people out of the roughly 190 millions people in Brazil. And the question asked is "what origin do you consider yourself of", with an open answer, so answers fall both in ethnicity and country of origin categories. So this figure is most likely way underestimated. I didn't have time and couldn't locate the figure of 6,000,000 in the other reference, though. Anyway, if noone opposes that, I will replace the figure of 164,000 by the 6,000,000 one. Because 164,000 is undoubtedly wrong, and 6,000,000 is possibly right. Does anyone have some useful information? Other figures? Tanynep talk 19:23, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Come on guys...these figures are WAY lower then reality. From the first part of the Lebanese Brazilian Wikipedia page---"The population of Brazil identifying with either full or partial Lebanese descent is estimated at between 7 to 10 million people. This number of immigrants is larger than the population in Lebanon. Immigration of the Lebanese (and Syrians) to Brazil started in the late 19th century, most of them coming from Lebanon and later from Syria." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.251.92 (talk) 03:53, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 February 2012

Please remove the reference to Bernard Lewis who is considered not a reliable scholar and employs propaganstic writing. Please make reference to Albert Hourani instead.

Dasdas00 (talk) 11:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

  • I've removed the sentence asking people to read Bernard Lewis completely. It is not within Wikipedia's scope to provide advice. Clovis Sangrail (talk) 11:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Acid test?

First section -- "(with language tending to be the acid test),..." Does this mean that language tends to be a signifier for someone who is Arab? I have no sources to back up the accuracy of this statement or not, but "acid test" is very unusual English. 'Litmus test' is much more frequent and useful. Or, change the statement altogether: "In addition to including all Arabized people of the world, with language acting as one signifier, it has also occassionally been used exclusively..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekeffel (talkcontribs) 22:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Favorable Anti-Arab Taste Overwhelming this Page

Favorable Anti-Arab taste overwhelming this pathetic propaganda-full Wikipedia page.. It is just disgusting how people here and there try to marginalize the Arabs in everything and degrading them, stripping them off anything.. we are sick of it! Definitely, this is what gives Wikipedia , not a bad, but an UGLY reputation..

- Therefore, I did a minor edit in the History section: Early history ("Ancient Arabs"): "Ancient Arabs", tribes that had vanished or been destroyed, such as ʿĀd and Thamud, often mentioned in the Qur'an as examples of God's power to destroy "wicked people".

Into: .. examples of God's power to destroy those who did not believe and follow their prophets and messengers. (as clarified in the Holy Qur'an). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rewayah (talkcontribs) 12:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Can you give us a more precise citation? Where does the Qur'an clarify the reason for Allah's destruction of those tribes? Huon (talk) 13:20, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Science - names?

What are the names of the Arab people making science? Let's be more specific. I looked more into it to help in finding it but the only names I've found Avicenna, Jābir ibn Hayyān or Rhazes were PERSIANS! Let's help in finding real Arabs here Merewyn (talk) 13:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

There's a list of Arab scientists and scholars. Averroes is probably the most prominent, though I don't know whether you'll consider him "real" enough. Since science is a rather urban endeavour, you're unlikely to find medieval scientists from the nomadic tribes of Arabia. Huon (talk) 13:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
I only mean that the paragraph Arab people#Science gives no names. I wanted to complete it but the names widely known as "Arab" are in fact Persian. Let's extract some the most prominent names from your list.Merewyn (talk) 21:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Boldface in lead

Dzlinker and I disagree on whether to put "panethnicity" in bold in the very first sentence. I agree it's important, but WP:MOSBOLD explicitly lists the appropriate uses of boldface, and "emphasis" is not among them (in fact it's listed among WP:BADEMPHASIS). Italics may be used for emphasis, but only sparingly, and not just because a fact is important (in contrast to introducing an important term that is then discussed in the article, which "panethnicity" is not). The position in the very first sentence should be sufficient emphasis for that fact. (I also doubt the single most important fact about the Arab people is that they're a panethnicity, but that's debatable.) For these reasons I've again removed the boldface. Huon (talk) 17:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Western Sahara

Dzlinker added an entry on Western Sahara, citing p. 214 of Levinson's Ethnic groups worldwide: a ready reference handbook as a reference. Page 214 of Levinson deals with China, not Western Sahara. That's not even the right continent. Levinson mentions Western Sahara on p. 178, but says nothing about it except that it's occupied by Morocco and that "its status as a nation is under discussion." Levinson's entry on Morocco adds no relevant information, though the Sahrawi population may have been included in the Moroccan statistics (not sure either way). Furthermore, Dzlinker gave Western Sahara's population as "400.000 to 3.000.000", whereas the CIA Factbook gives a number of 522,928. I have no idea where the three million are supposed to come from, but that number is literally incredible. He also linked to the demographics of Western Sahara article, but it does not cover the ethnic composition and does not mention Arabs. Since the total population is dubious (to put it mildly) and no source exists for the percentage of Arabs, I have removed the entry. Huon (talk) 18:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here, these are some new references about arab culture in Western Sahara. Ethnologue says there are two varients of arabic language spoken in Western Sahara link. The same report include a total population of 440K, and Joshua Project says they are 567K according to the UN 2012 Census. 700K according to this. Those are the Sahrawis who live in Western Sahara and Tindouf Refugee Camp. This shows a world population (of Sahrawis) of 3.5M mainly leaving in Marocco. This is why i put 400K to 3M.. - Dzlinker (talk) 23:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't think saharaterritory.webs.com is a reliable source; I have no idea where they got their numbers from, but I believe the "Saharan population" is population that lives in the Sahara desert, not Sahrawi population - for comparison, they give a "Saharan population" of 12 million in Sudan, and I doubt a quarter of Sudan's population are Sahrawi expatriates. Even if they were, they should still be counted among their country of residence (ie Morocco, not Western Sahara), as we do with the guest workers in Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. Peoplegroups seems to give the number of Moroccans who are ethnic Sahrawis (who may or may not be expatriates from Western Sahara), and that number, while possibly relevant to Morocco, is irrelevant to Western Sahara. Their entry on Western Sahara is empty. The Joshua Project is hardly a reliable source; if their number comes from an UN-led census, we should cite that census directly, but I don't see that there's anything on how many of the inhabitants are considered Arabs. Rather, the majority of the population seems to be classified as "Moors", who are variously described as "an Arab-Berber people" and "of mixed Berber, Arab, and black African descent". Huon (talk) 00:40, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Huon and Dzlinker... though saharaterritory.webs.com is not specially precise on its data - and that not because of lack of interest by the writer, you can bet -, it is obvious that many people still do not differentiate between sahrawi and saharan people. The saharan population that saharaterritory.webs.com refer is an estimated (+/-) population on the desertic (therefore saharan) territory of a given country, which is calculated by crossing data between a satellite map together with province demographics information. And all the source data used came from Wikipedia. But well, Wikipedia is far from being gold, however; I myself corrected an article about Mali geography while writing saharaterritory.webs.com.
The article says the classification as arab is not ethnic but cultural, since Sahrawis seem to speak Arabic they should figure here, Moors, Berbers, Mesopotamians, Syrians, Arabians, .. are considered arabs in this article. I propose to add the Western Sahara territory, with the population given by un 2009 census 513K (page 19) , plus around 150K refugees, with a precision note about the ethnicities. OK? - Dzlinker (talk) 09:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Whether Berbers are counted as Arabs depends. For Morocco, Levinson divides the population (which is 99% Arab-Berber) into 66% Arabs (and the rest non-Arab Berbers, plus the 1% Spaniards and others). To classify Moors as Arabs seems synthesis to me; we do so for Mauritania, but I don't think we should. I wouldn't mind the addition of Western Sahara with the UN Census information on the total population (though the refugees probably should be counted among their country of residence, not among Western Sahara), but finding a source which gives precise information about the number of Arabs among the Sahrawi population will probably be difficult. Huon (talk) 11:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
I added a new row about the Western Sahara, with references to the total population, ethnic groups and languages spoken. -Dzlinker (talk) 12:02, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
I think that the Western Sahara entry has to be kept on the list, since most inhabitants consider themselves as Arabs (same statement than Mauritania), even if two of the three major groups (Tekna and Reguibat) are mostly Arabic-speaking but of Berber descent. However, no flag should be associated to the entry to keep the neutrality of the article. --Omar-Toons (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

bull shit

bull shit article written by arabists specially the funny numbers and table with percentage ratios in the bottom and the reference book. --MasriDefend (talk) 02:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

funny they invented a new race called eastern hamatic arab wow, arab is arace now, Arabian peninsula people have their race and have mixed with other race. bullshit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MasriDefend (talkcontribs) 02:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. We base our articles on what reliable sources say, not what some random person on the internet knows is right. You deleted what reliable sources report on the ethnic makeup of a number of countries (those countries known as the Arab world). I realize that there some people that feel that such and such group is not Arab, and they (you) are entitled to hold that view. And if you can bring reliable sources that dispute whatever material is in the article, then Wikipedia will be more than willing to accommodate any other perspectives on the topic. You are not however entitled to delete what reliable sources say because you feel it is bullshit that is written by arabists. Thank you for your cooperation. nableezy - 02:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It's common sense that's why I am saying and sorry "bullshit". For the source, wikipedia here is source, there are many article who say other wise here. Arab is an ideology which is not ethnic or race nor arab is a race as the source says, only illiterate people would say that. You can not say that 90% are arab in Egypt first, because it's not an ethinic or race and I am stressing here many times; secondly, you did not survey 90% of Egyptians who say that they are arabist and believe in arabism or nasirists. In Egypt and any where in north Africa many people say they are arab because they want to be from prophet mohamed or because of the influence of nasirism as an ideology and because of Islam is from and arab source and arabic language. Those people are illiterate except the idology where some people believe in arabism and naserism and they are free to do that; however, these people are very small group now specially seeing what this idology brought to their countries such as Egypt, syria, lybia, yemen, and iraq specifically their regimes. Thank u for ur fast response. --MasriDefend (talk) 06:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Basically, the word arab in middle east and north african countries now is the same as the word western, or european in europe. Although I don't like the name and that what most people dont like and the dispute mainly is the name since it's originally an ethnecity name of the people of the arabian penesola and I would like it to be replace with the geographic name the same as europe are european and have a european uninue not say english league same as arab league; that's what I hope to be done, to have a north africa middle eastern union instead of arab league. The people of the region share many things the same as europeans share many things such as similar culture and languages. So currently, u say the country of Egypt is arab same as u say the country of England is europeans and not say the percentage of european in England is 90% and btw, Egypt dont have immigrants. Regards --MasriDefend (talk) 06:45, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

i propose changing title to Arab world people, it is very disputable i believe, but it will clearly make the point about ethnic mixture, and redefine the people as the guys who live in the arab world. -Dzlinker (talk) 08:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
We've had these discussions billions of times. There will always be some nationalists here and there who dislike what they see in this article, but that's irrelevant, reliable sources are what matters, not nationalist opinions. FunkMonk (talk) 08:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I dont get what FunkMonk does not like. If u think that Arab is a race then I am sorry ur stupid. If you think 90% of Egyptians are Arab ancestory just check out The Egyptians #Genetic history article and go search for the modern Egyptian DNA. real arabians in Egypt is less than one percent mainly the Bedouins. And I agree with Dzlinker --MasriDefend (talk) 18:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

You are aware that the article in its very first sentence says that "Arab" is a panethnicity, not a "race"? Regarding "Arab world people": That seems a neologism to me; we'd need to see it used in reliable sources before we discuss changing the article title. Huon (talk) 19:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It's widely in the mid east north africa, not new. As I said only illiterate people are who think that they areab for the reasons I stated above so It's not panethinic since many people now day are educated and read their genetic history and know that they are not ethnically arab but are arab by culture and language, in other word, there are similar and common and related cultures and languages and specially religion between the people of mid east north africa and these people recognize it. Dont confuse with arabism or nasirism since its the ideology that of belonging to one "united arab state" and not the individual countries this was popular at the time of ottomn and english colonism in the area but now it very unpopular. I dont understand what kind of source do u need that states that arab is currently other word for the brothers in the mid east north africa region who share many similarities. There is unfortunatly alot of confusion between arab the term and arab the ethnicity. --MasriDefend (talk) 20:10, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

"Arab by culture and language" is exactly what "ethnically Arab" means. I don't know what kind of source we'd need, but the source we currently have is the abstract of a talk given at the Human Genome Meeting 2011. I somehow doubt you can claim the speaker is illiterate. Huon (talk) 20:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

What I mean by arab as ethnicity is arab by DNA. --MasriDefend (talk) 21:03, 18 July 2012 (UTC) ".. but are arab by culture and language, in other word, there are similar and common and related cultures and languages and specially religion between the people of mid east north africa and these people recognize it."--MasriDefend (talk) 21:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

When we agree that "ethnicity" is defined via language, culture, and religion, not DNA, you'll find that the article already says what you want it to say. Huon (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Huon please understand, there are similar cultures and languages same similar cultures and language between European and not the same culture and language. --MasriDefend (talk) 21:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're saying here. How are the laguages and cultures of Europe relevant to Arab people? Huon (talk) 22:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

omg, Huon please understand, there are similar cultures and languages in the mid east north africa not the same culture and language. The same as Europeans have similar cultures and languages between them and not the same culture and language. Hope u understand it right this time.--MasriDefend (talk) 22:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There is another catastrophic thing about the article, Arabians redirects here !! Arabians are the indigenous people of the Arabian peninsula! Do we agree?? If so i have an other proposition, let us create an article for Arabians, and put a disambiguation tag at the top of each of those two.

There is articles for Berbers (actually two considering Maghrebis) for Egyptians for Syrians and for Mesopotamians, but not for Arabians which redirects to Arab people where we find all the ethnic groups cited before !! despite, and considering the arabians fashion, that doesn't exist anywhere else in the arab world, those people deserve an article for them alone. -Dzlinker (talk) 22:38, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

True There is confusion between arab the term and arab the ethnicity and this the cause of the whole dispute and issue. --MasriDefend (talk) 22:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree on the inhabitats of the Arabian peninsula, but I don't know enough about that topic to write the article myself. Be bold and go ahead! Regarding the Arab people: The wide range of people so classified makes them not just an ethnicity, but a panethnicity. The corresponding European equivalent would probably be "Western culture", which is an equally broad, if not broader, classification. Huon (talk) 23:44, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I think european is the more equivelent example. First, it not one culture, there are many culture. Add to this the broad history of the region and its differences. And adding north africans to the composition making it similar to european eastern and western sides. arab itself is not a culture, but alot of common things of many cultures. --MasriDefend (talk) 00:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
See this article Culture of Europe --MasriDefend (talk) 02:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I'll do at least a startup. -Dzlinker (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Bad idea. We have an article for Arab world and demographics of the Arab world, any new content forks will be redirected back. FunkMonk (talk) 12:31, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Well its your personal opinion that its a bad idea and u should keep that to urself. And who do u think u are to "redirect things back", this does not seem like cooperation to making a more meaningful article or a constructive argument. What demographics are u taking about? dont tell me the one with the ratios which I dont know what the hell are they based on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --MasriDefend (talk) 00:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I am from the arab world and I am muslim and I know more about it than many of u and I dont think any one from the arab world would oppose my suggestions to improving the article.--MasriDefend (talk) 00:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
First off, MasryDefend should take it down a notch, insults and exclamation points won't get you anywhere here and opening a thread titled "bull shit" is not helpful to the discussion either. Congratulations on being a Muslim from the Arab world. This alone does not give you any special qualifications in deciding matters related to the Arab world on Wikipedia. This article is about the "panethnicity" of people who share the Arabic language (with varying dialects), a similar Arabic culture (with regional, national, and local variations), a similar history and geographic region. It does not deal solely with those with Arabian ancestry (i.e. genetics) and thus includes Egyptians, Iraqis, Sudanese, Palestinians, Moroccans etc. However, the article itself needs a lot of work, including a better explanation of what subject it is specifically dealing with. There might indeed be a need for a separate article about Gulf Arabs who without a doubt form their own subcultural group. I have reservations about an article on "Arabians" though. What would this article cover? People from the Arabian Peninsula or all people in the Arab world who have Arabian ancestry i.e. of Bedouin descent? --Al Ameer son (talk) 15:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Who could say how many arabs are of arabians ancestry?? I believe it's hard to find out, due to their tiny number they must have been totally absorbed by populations they've been living with. Never the less we can make a section for "arabian diaspora in the arab world..". Actually their is an article about bedouins, which talks about arabians who still live in tents among camels. I've started a new article about Arabians, some help would be welcome. -Dzlinker (talk) 18:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
That's kind of the point I was trying to make. Therefore, the article you are working on would then cover the inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula only? Why don't we just start an article on Gulf Arabs instead of Arabians? Arabians and Arab overlap too much and the term is confusing. It would also put the Gulf Arabs and the Yemenis in the same subcategory which is inaccurate. I think we ought to discuss this more before making a move. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Agree with al Ameer. "Arabians" has no separate meaning from Arabs. FunkMonk (talk) 19:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
NO arab is no arabian, arab is the arab native speaker, and the arabian live in arabia (gulf). Two different things. I would rather keep arabian, so people will stop confusing them with arabs. -Dzlinker (talk) 22:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
That's your own, personal definition, which is irrelevant here. FunkMonk (talk) 22:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi ya ameer. I am not doing this for my own benifit but for more public correct knowledge around the issue when read. I lived most of my life in Egypt meaning the I know the situation more than many foreigners that's all. Now for the panethnicity, this term means there is some culture and many cultures are sub of it from this original culture. And this is not applied in Arab situation where every region in the Arab world have very great history, different cultures and different spoken languages. What you can call panethnicity could be Egyptians, there are many sub culture and people in Egypt today such as Sharkawys(people from the eastern province), Alexanderians, etc or more broader upper and lower Egyptian division. But u know All Egyptian now are affected by each other and they are not the different from Each other maybe in minor things. For this article, I got an idea of removing it. There is no article here for European people but there is an article for Culture of Europe and Category:European culture I think we should follow this example as I stated the similarity between the Europeans and arab world situation. In The Egyptian Arabic wikipedia, the article about arabs deals with the arabians both terms are the same only in English there is different terms. I dont agree with the golf arab name because then are going back to the issue of panethnicity of culture sub from a parent original culture. --MasriDefend (talk) 22:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
u know what people, we need to be frank here. There is nothing such as arab accept the people from arabian penesuila. This is the historic term from the quran, and over centeries. The only time where this term was used to refer to all people from north africa and middle east was at the time of gamal abdel nasser who forced Egypt with the arabist from the middle east and forcing all of north africa to this new ideology of one state called "united arab republic". Many people that are not educated enough wrongly think that since we speak "Arabic" as they are all taught sice the islamic times and we are arabs because they think is no way for us to be speaking arabic and be muslim accept by being real arabs, knowing nothing about real arab and we all know today that this is wrong. So if we choose to go with the wrong facts then u keep this article and continue to assert this wrong assumption. If we choose to go with the right facts then we do what's right regardless of the arab ideology and wrong facts from uneducated people. That's the whole story. --MasriDefend (talk) 09:34, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────If you claim that there's no such thing as Arab people except people from the Arabian peninsula, you have to explain sources like Levinson saying that there is. When it's your personal opinion against multiple reliable secondary sources, the sources win. Huon (talk) 10:24, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I already stated my sources, the quran and history until the 50s. And all the sources u have including the source that say arab is panethnicity are from arabist websites, just look on the top of the site. And from westerners who dont understand the situation well. --MasriDefend (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
look at this map, it names arabian peninsuila as the country of arabs. http://arz.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%84%D9%81:Khaleej_ajam.jpg its from a book I think --MasriDefend (talk) 22:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
"History until the 50s" is not a source, and the Quran is at best a primary source. Levinson, on the other hand, is an expert who published with a reliable academic publisher. Ghazi Tadmouri, our source for the "panethnicity", is an expert speaking at a scientific conference (not an "arabist website") and not a Westerner. You cannot dismiss reliable sources just because they disagree with your preferred theory. I'm not sure what the map is supposed to tell me, but when we have to choose between a 1908 Ottoman map and a 1998 academic reference book, the latter is obviously the better source. Huon (talk) 23:47, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I already said what I wanted to say. Quran and hadith in the times of islam specially hadiths(talks) used to refer by arab as the inhabitant of arabian peninsula. TO sum up this issue:

1)there are similar and common and related cultures and languages and specially religion between the people of mid east north africa and these people recognize it wrongly by using the term arab today effected from 2 and 3. The same as Europeans have similar cultures and languages between them and not the same culture and language.

2) Many people that are not educated enough wrongly think that since we speak "Arabic" as they are all taught sice the islamic times and we are arabs because they think is no way for us to be speaking arabic and be muslim accept by being real arabs, knowing nothing about real arab and we all know today that this is wrong.

3) The arab ideology come from 1 and 2, It's pan-arabism to create one state comprimising whole of mid east and north africa into a state called united arab republic. It has be attempted alot and always failed. This movement is very unpopular today. --MasriDefend (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The above is mostly an individual opinion being hoisted upon a group of people with no sources. Just to respond to the last point, as most everything else has already had somebody respond, a pan-Arabist received over 21% of the first round of the Egyptian presidential elections. To claim that pan-Arabism is "very unpopular today" is a personal opinion masquerading as a documented fact. nableezy - 06:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

he was going to win not because he was pan arabist but because he was libral, he was not that pan arabist though. anyway do whatever u want --MasriDefend (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

THANK GOD, I found the source u badly want. Arab is a geographic term! http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/4/48593/Opinion/The-Republic-of-Egypt.aspx --MasriDefend (talk) 05:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That's an opinion piece in a newspaper. nableezy - 05:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

yeah, other sources states solid undisputed facts right. And I am saying that arab is stated as a geographic term and I did not mean the opinion about removing arab from the offical name of the country. Here is a source that say that arab is a "geographic term".--MasriDefend (talk) 06:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That isnt a reliable source for statements of fact. The most it could be used for is to source that Abdel Moneim Said holds this opinion. nableezy - 16:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

UAE demographics

Arjun G. Menon brought the UAE entry in the Arab population section in line with the demographics section of the United Arab Emirates article. Unfortunately that article's numbers bore no relation to the source; in fact, an "arab" demographic not mentioned in the source seems to have been made up, and all other numbers except the natives were too low to make up the difference. Thus I reverted to the old CIA numbers. Huon (talk) 23:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Arabized Arabs descending from Ishmael

I removed the "no evidence has been shown" comment. This is your own personal belief. If you actually have a reliable source that argues that point of view then put it. I don't see "no evidence has been shown" when it comes to the claim that Jews are descendant from Jacob. The Arabized Arabs section is according to Medieval Arab genealogists who took pride to their lineage and recorded who their father were for thousands of years. Plus, Jews and Arabs along with other semitic groups like Assyrians share the same genetic heritage which is obvious since they all come from the same tight region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.70.35.233 (talk) 10:43, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

other

You can add to the potrait. Omar Sharif Muhammad Ahmad Umm Kulthum, Badr Hari, Semi Khedira, Rafic Hariri, Amin Maalouf,

Rima Fakih, 

Naguib Mahfouz ,

Ibn Battuta and Carlos Slim.

95.116.110.65 (talk) 16:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

"The Muslim World"

"In the 20th century, coinciding with the rise of Pan Arab nationalism, the Muslim world began promoting a history that the Semitic peoples originated from the Arabian peninsula", What Muslim?? Arabs make up at most 20% of the Muslim world, so you can't claim that the "Muslim World" said this or that, while the 80% was silent. And where are the sources? The source provided DOESN'T mention anything about Muslims or Arabs claiming anything.--BelalSaid (talk) 03:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

What source? I took that statement as unsourced and not based on Goodspeed cited a couple of sentences later for something rather different. Of course that wouldn't make it any better. In fact I wonder at that entire subsection's purpose. Maybe it's supposed to be a history of the inhabitants of Arabia and the Middle East before they ever were Arabs, but even then it does a pretty bad job. It seems to take some sources for disjoint facts, spinning a story none of these sources embraces - original synthesis. If no one objects, I'll rewrite or remove that entire subsection in a few days. Huon (talk) 03:37, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed replacement in the infobox

I was thinking of replacing John of Damascus with Mariam Baouardy another Arab Christian, although a woman. This would even out the sexes, but not ruin the religious and regional balance we have now. A minus could be that her article isn't very long, and perhaps she is less notable. FunkMonk (talk) 12:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Not sure since John of Damascus is more famous, no strong opinion on the matter through. What do you think of adding another level or two of images? Or would it be too much? --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I think we could maybe add a level more, but I think we should be just as careful in picking individuals as last time, the Palestinian info box was recently expanded with several rows, not due to the particular notability of the people included, but simply because there were free images of them. I think that's a flawed approach. FunkMonk (talk) 16:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree. i propose Avicenna and Ibn Arabi, and Tarik ben Zyad in addition to the one you proposed (Mariam Baouardy). I can do the work. -Dzlinker (talk) 23:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Avicenna was Persian while Tariq bin Ziyad was Berber. I think we should discuss the new additions before making a new collage --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, thorough discussion is key to prevent edit wars. I'm surprised that the current image received so little criticism. There was a bit from some Egyptian nationalists for including Nasser, but no one can dispute he always identified as Arab. FunkMonk (talk) 04:11, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
He always claimed arab origin ansistory. So let gamal be who he wished to be. I don't care about him as an Egyptian.--MasriDefend (talk) 07:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Let's make a survey about who should figure on the next row. I propose 4 people:

Ibn Arabi.jpgPSM V25 D300 Averroes.jpgIbn khaldoun in a maroccan stamp.jpgLeo africanus.jpg If any other suggestions, please add it (with a portrait) to the list above. Thanks! - Dzlinker (talk) 23:53, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

This is very al-Andalus-heavy. I'd get rid of either Ibn Arabi or Leo Africaus, probably the former, so we can keep John of Damascus, add Mariam Baouardy, and get a 3 by 4 block of images.
Moors are iffy, since most were Berbers. Also, we might need to have an image of a black Arab somewhere i the article, they're very under-represented, though there are many. FunkMonk (talk) 01:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Egyptians are not arabs

There is 90% arab ancestry cited on the page for egyptians. This is not true, because at the strictest definition arab would mean bedouin. In terms of genetic similarity, there is some similarity between Egyptian "arabs" and other arabs, but it is not any more than there is between Egyptians and Libyans.

If we apply the definition of arab to mean any genetic commonality that arab-speaking countries have, then we would be sure to include a whole bunch of other african and non-arab asian countries (since for example some of these commonalities may be shared by persians, west africans, east africans, etc.)

It is a huge stretch to call Egyptians and Sudanese people arabs. They only consider themselves arabs because of spoken language. -- 04:37, 26 December 2012‎ 174.116.244.90

So where does the article state it uses "the strictest definition"? FunkMonk (talk) 04:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
like i said even if it was a more loose definition it makes no sense because you have to include about 10 more countries, if you include north africa. Arabia and the rest of the middle east (syria, iraq, jordan) makes more sense than just adding countries because they speak arabic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.244.90 (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
174.116.244.90 -- It's almost completely useless to try to define "Arab" genetically; anyway, it's not how the word is commonly used in any language. The Arabic language actually has two different forms, أعرابي and عربي. This article is about عربي. AnonMoos (talk) 07:43, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Arab League vs individual countries

Hi. I don't think it makes sense to list the Arab League as a region with a x number of Arab people. Firstly, it is a political construct, not an organisation representing Abab people(s)/ nation(s). Secondly, it does not include all the Arab people in the region and includes some non-Arab people. Most Sudanese (even before the partition) are not Arab, Somalia is not Arab, southern Mauritania is not Arab. Then, what about the millions of minorities scattered in most of the countries that make up the League? Finally, Syria has been expelled - so is this counted in in those 280 million people?/ Have Syrians (22,5 million) been deducted from that total? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 16:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

"Arab" is a panethnicity. The peoples in the Arab World in general come from different backgrounds (c.f Demographics of the Arab League). Egyptians, for example, are the descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. Similarly, the populations of the Maghreb are by and large of Berber origin, and many Lebanese are of Phoenician heritage. The table needs to be adjusted to reflect this reality. Middayexpress (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

That is true, Arabs from different regions from the Middle East come from different background and lineages. Today, a generic definition of an ethnic Arab is "one who speaks Arabic as a native/first language". Many people in the Arab League like Somalia, Djabouti and Chad mostly speak and learn Arabic as a second language. In Sudan, most of the Arabs are Afro-Arab, Arabized native black populations. They are Arabs by linguistic means to the fact that many Sudanese people speak Arabic as a native language, adhere to its culture as far as lineage goes, they are black natives of Africa. Take a look at the Sudanese Arabs article. Gulf Arabs have a melting pot of ancestry and origin, including Arabian, Persian, Indian and Turkish ancestries. Yemeni Arabs, Levantine Arabs and Gulf Arabs barely have any resemblances in ancestry. Most of Yemen's and North Arabia's Arabs are descendants of Abraham. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 00:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Should Philip the Arab Remain in the Table?

I understand he came from the Roman province of Arabia, what is now Syria. I'm starting to question the validity of him being an actual Arab, did he even speak or learn Arabic or an Arabian dialect? It seems he only spoke Latin, Greek and/or Aramaic. I see it like Queen Zenobia, her ethnic origin is in dispute of whether she came from an Aramaic or an Arabic-speaking family. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

The Roman province of Arabia was actually centered in modern Jordan, and included little territory now in modern Syria. AnonMoos (talk) 01:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Irrespective of the boundaries of the Roman province and despite his name, I agree with PacificWarrior101 that Philip the Arab probably was not an Arab as this article uses the word. We should remove him; whom should we add in his place? Huon (talk) 02:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I really guess Philip the Arab was included in the table because he was native to Syria, people there were considered "Arabs" or "Arabians" at the time, regardless of whether they spoke Arabic or not and some Arabs consider the term to be one of lineage or bloodline, he's on the 100 Syrian pound note but so is Queen Zenobia. Same concept with the Himyarites and Nabateans, they weren't Arabic-speakers either, they spoke the Himyarite, Hebrew and Aramaic languages and most accept them as Arabs. If Philip the Arab is removed, I'd probably suggest putting Al-Waleed Bin Talal, a bussiness magnate from Saudi Arabia or perhaps an Al-Nahdi figure like Emil Habibi. Or else we may just have to leave it empty and live with 5 pictures instead. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 18:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

He was included because all credible sources state he was an Arab. That's all there is to it, our speculations rather irrelevant. And yes, the Nabateans did speak Arabic, and there were other Arabic speaking groups within the fertile crescent at the time. FunkMonk (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
PacificWarrior101 -- Arabia and Syria were not the same thing in Roman times; I don't know why you seem to have difficulty understanding this... AnonMoos (talk) 09:34, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'll believe you on that since you mentioned sources. Can you list some of these sources? The Nabateans spoke Arabic much later throughout their civilization. I know Arabic existed, but it just wasn't as big and major of languages such as Aramaic or Hebrew. Most of the Arabic language were similar dialects in Arabia or the Levant and Fertile Crescent. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 04:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

The Nabatean inscriptions start out being in Arabic-influenced Aramaic, and the Arabic influence increased as time went on...
At that time, Arabs were mainly on the margins of the Fertile Crescent, and were not heavily settled in its agricultural core. However, the distance between the core and the fringes was often not great in terms of miles or kilometers. AnonMoos (talk) 09:34, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay. I was just having trouble finding Arabic works in the script before Muhammad's time and the entire Islamic golden age phenomina. Aramaic was written in both Syriac and Hebrew scripts, Syriac looks a lot like Arabic and I wouldn't be surprised to find that that and the cursive Nabatean created the Arabic script. I'm just wondering if the Ghassanids and Lakhmids actually did use the Arabic script, because I knew those two spoke Arabic as a lingua franca. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 17:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

We should add Antarah Ibn Shaddad and Naem Giladi and few others in a new row

Antarah Ibn Shaddad was a prominent Arabian poet and romantist, very popular in Arabic literature and was adopted in latter European works. Then there's Naeim Giladi from Iraq, consider himself to be an Arab Jew. Let's not forget Hussein bin Ali who initiated the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans. Al-Waleed bin Talal would also be a good one to add, one of the world's most wealthy bussiness magnates and then Abdulaziz, founder of Saudi Arabia. I think there should be new row for these people in the mosaic. What you guys think? 06:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

The three first ones don't really have usable images. Remember, no "fair use". And Al-Waleed bin Talal is too divisive a figure to be representative. FunkMonk (talk) 06:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't be completely opposed to Giladi if we could crop his picture, my only concern is how notable he is. As for Hussein bin Ali, we already have his son Faisal who was a principle actor in the revolt and an actual ruler over a united Syria and Hejaz and later king of Iraq and as such, a more iconic Arab figure than his father. Agree with FunkMonk on Bin Talal, and I don't support the inclusion of Abdulaziz because we already have an Arabian king in Faisal and another head of state in Gamal Abdel Nasser. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay I see. Actually there is a picture on the Antarah ibn Shaddad page, you can just crop the picture of him in the drawing although I'm not sure of all the policies and stuff. Naeim Giladi came up with the concept of an "Arab Jew", an Arab of the Jewish faith because during the Israeli-Palestinean Conflict, everything thought an Arab Jews was just impossible. The guy also didn't support Zionist Israel. The only reason I came with three or more other people was to equalize the amount the pictures on each row. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 06:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

And I added Giladi's picture on the Iraqi Jews page, but it was full of angry Zionists and it got deleted. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 06:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Ok, I didn't realize you were proposing a third row. If the image of Giladi is free I think it would be a good addition. I checked the Iraqi Jews page and it appears the picture got removed because it wasn't free not because the page was "full of angry Zionists." By the way I would avoid name-calling when it comes to fellow editors, see WP:Assume good faith and WP:civility. Anyway, if we are going to include a third row, I'm ready to hear more suggestions and will think of some of my own later. The problem is we always run into some opposition when we want to include iconic Arab cultural figures like Umm Kalthum and Fairuz because they're not "Arabs" they're purely "Aramaic" or "Egyptian". I still propose the inclusion of at least one of the two since they certainly fit the definition of Arab and frequently proclaimed pan-Arab pride in their music. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, it's a bit hard to add new stuff, because I really tried hard to get the current one as balanced as possible in every way. But I'm open for a third row, if we can find the right balance, and don't just cram stuff in. The current image is intentionally divided into a row of ancient and a row of 20th century figures, so we may need to break it up in some way. I also think Umm Kalthoum or Fairuz could be good representatives of a notable "modern" Arab woman. The ones we have are from colonial times and before. FunkMonk (talk) 07:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hmm....yeah. It's kind of hard and complicated to upload pictures here on Wikipedia. A row with Umm Kalthoum, Fairuz, Giladi and Bin Shaddad would be a great addition, however as Al-Ameer said, image copyright issues. About all the Aramaic-origin stuff, I gotta agree too, doesn't even matter. People get too caught with that stuff. Like Philip the Arab, some say he was Aramaic too from Syria. If a Chinese couple migrated to the Middle East, tought their descendants Arabic and never tought them a word of Chinese, they'd probably be considered an Arab. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 14:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
By the way check out my articles at http://ethnipedia.wetpaint.com/page/Arabs PacificWarrior101 (talk) 15:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
  • New image looks horrible. We shouldn't just fill it up with every random person just because we have photos of them. FunkMonk (talk) 19:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

We should French and Hebrew in the "languages section"

Much of the Arab World was under French colonization, so many Arabs I know speak French as a second or third language. Then you have the Arabs from Israel, who speak Hebrew as a second language. What do you guys think? PacificWarrior101 (talk) 04:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

For a "Languages spoken in the Arab world" article, that should be included; for the "Arab people" article, probably not. AnonMoos (talk) 08:13, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Origin

What about their genetics? Are they mixed Asians with Africans? Or are they a mix of everything? Why do some have curly hair and Turks or Persian straight hair? Why did these Arabs want to (immigrate) live in desert land? Why do Arabs not speak an Indo-European language, they are very close related to southern Europeans and Iranians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.180.49.4 (talk) 03:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why so many people who seem to know relatively little about genetics seem to be obsessed with genetics. The ancestors of Arabs today include migrants from Hejaz-`Asir-Yemen, and also the diverse inhabitants of lands conquered during the 7th and 8th centuries A.D. Indo-European languages have probably never been spoken by the majority of the population in areas which are majority Arabic-speaking today; rather there were a series of Semitic lingua francas in the Mashriq (first Akkadian, then Aramaic), with Arabic being the last. Since the Indo-European homeland was probably in the southeastern Ukraine and adjacent areas of Russia, while the Proto-Semitic homeland was probably in southern Arabia and/or northeastern Africa, presumably there is no close origin relationship on that level; however, many Arabs are not too different in visual appearance from many Iranians and/or southern Europeans... AnonMoos (talk) 14:05, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Read the Book of Genesis, especially the part which mentions Abraham having a child named Ishmael through Hagar. Abraham was 'Asian' whereas Hagar was Egyptian (ie. African). Ishmael is the ancestor of the Arabs so the Arabs are of mixed African and Asian blood. Read further in the book of genesis and you will understand why the Arabs live in desert lands today. (Note: Not all Arabs live in desert lands today). --DaveZ122 (talk) 09:27, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
We have an article specifically on Genesis, chapter 10: Table of Nations -- but that doesn't have much to do with genetics either... AnonMoos (talk) 02:18, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • What is meant by "Arabs" here? North African Arabs, Levantin Arabs, Gulf Arabs, Mesopotamian Arabs, etc., all have separate (although related) origins. Arabisation has nothing to do with genetics. FunkMonk (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

uncertain

Where is the evidence that Philip, Balqis, Isaac, Are Arabs? --محبةالكتب (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Merge

I was surprised to discover that there is also an article on "Arabian people", making some kind of artificial distinction between the Arab people as a whole and the Arabs of Arabian peninsula in particular. It is quiet obvious that Arab peoples have their genesis in Arabia (Qahtani Arabs) and the Levant (Adnani Arabs) and since there is already an article on Qahtanites, i see no reason to differ Arabians and Arabs. I herewith propose to merge.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Overwhelming support, same people, different era. Charles Essie (talk) 20:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Merged since no objections raised. Yes check.svg DoneGreyshark09 (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Third row

I find only two rows in the infobox really insufficient for the representation of such a large ethnicity, and maybe even the people currently chosen aren't the best 8 possible representatives of Arabs. There, I propose adding a third row for a wider representation, and making few other changes. My suggestion would be; a modern noble prize winner (Naguib Mahfouz), a prominent politician (maybe Boutros Boutros-Ghali), a modern diaspora prominent figure (like Carlos Slim or Carlos Menem), and a prominent Arab spring figure (like Mohamed Bouazizi or Tawakkol Karman). I also suggest replacing Al-Kindi with Ibn Khaldun and replacing Al-khansa with Al-Mutanabbi, as the latter two are much more widely known --aad_Dira (talk) 19:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC).

I agree on that one, Gamal Abdel-Nasser isn't up there either, yet he is more of an Arab World hero than Yasser Arafat, less controversial than Yasser Arafat and yes, Carlos Slim and Carlos Menem would be great diaspora representations, along with Tony Kanaan or some Brazilian Arabs. Emile Habibi and Tawfiq Canaan are better reprentations of Palestinians, and as for singers, Fairuz and Umm Kulthum should be in there too. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 20:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Arab clarification

There should be a note about the fact that most western people believe "Arab" to mean Ethnically Bedouin. When in actually most Arabs are Eygptian, Caucasion (Jordan/Syria) or Berber. 216.46.26.2 (talk) 04:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget Arabian, Egyptian Arabs are descendants of Arabian migrants to Egypt. The Caucasian Arabs are mostly the Levantine. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 06:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Berbers are not Arabs, but i agree with you that most of arabs actually are sedentaries.Teranosor (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


THERE IS AN ISSUE TO BE CLEARED UP. SOME CONTRIBUTORS HAVE CLASSIFIED THE ARABS AS A SEMITIC PEOPLE. ARABIC IS A SEMITIC LANGUAGE, HOWEVER THE PEOPLE WE NOW CONSIDER ARABS OUTSIDE OF ASIA LARGELY SPOKE NON-SEMITIC LANGUAGES IN THE PAST (PRE-7TH CENTURY CE). THIS SIGNIFIES THAT LANGUAGE AND RACE/ETHNICITY ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. EGYPT IS THE CENTRE OF THE MODERN ARAB WORLD CIVILIZATION AND ITS PHYSICAL PEOPLE SPENT MOST OF THEIR EXISTENCE AS HAMITIC SPEAKERS; THEIR GENESIS AND DEVELOPMENT WAS EXCLUSIVE TO NORTH EAST AFRICA. THOUGH STILL HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC, IT WOULD BE MORE DEFENSIBLE TO CALL EGYPTIANS HAMITES RATHER THAN SEMITES. IN FACT PHARAONIC EGYPTIANS HAD A STRONG ANTIPATHY TO THE (LEVANTINE) SEMITICS SPEAKERS TO THEIR IMMEDIATE EAST; ANCIENT EGYPTIAN IMAGES DEPICTED THE LEVANTINE PEOPLE AS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT KIND OF HUMAN, DESCRIBING THEM AS THE "VILE ASIATICS." WHEN THE ASIATIC HYKSOS INFILTRATED EGYPT, THE EGYPTIANS WERE SURPRISED TO FIND THEM IMITATING FACETS OF EGYPTIAN CIVILISATION. IN THE 16TH CENTURY BCE, THE PHARAOH AHMOSE I PUSHED THE ASIATICS BACK INTO ASIA WHERE THEY REMAINED UNTIL THE 7TH CENTURY CE, WHEREUPON THEY RETURNED WITH BETTER INSTRUMENTS OF CONQUEST AND SUCCEEDED IN A LENGTHY CONQUEST. MY POINT IS JUST BECAUSE THE ASIATICS/SEMITIC SPEAKERS HAVE CAPTURED THE MIND AND EMOTIONS OF THE EGYPTIAN PEOPLE, IT DOES NOT MEAN THE PHYSICAL BEING HAS BEEN REPLACED. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TAHRIR1550BC (talkcontribs) 18:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

First off "Hamitic" is almost meaningless -- it was always a miscellaneous grab-bag of non-Semitic languages in the Hamito-Semitic group, and nowadays Afroasiatic is preferred to "Hamito-Semitic". Secondly, "Semitic people" has little meaning other than "speakers of Semitic languages" when referring to the modern period (as opposed to tribesmen of 1000 B.C.)... AnonMoos (talk) 19:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

YES I KNOW THE TERM "HAMITIC" IS PROBLEMATIC, I SAID THAT IN MY COMMENT. SEMITIC TOO IS PROBLEMATIC DESPITE YOUR ABSENT ADMISSION OF THIS. DO YOU REALLY THINK "SEMITIC" IS A VALID CATEGORY AND HAMITIC ONLY "INVALID." ANYHOW YOU SEEM TO MISS THE GIST OF MY COMMENT: THE PEOPLE CATEGORISED AS "ARAB," WHO ARE OUTSIDE ASIA, ARE OVERWHELMINGLY NOT "SEMITIC PEOPLE" (NEAR EASTERNERS). THE PHRASE "SEMITIC PEOPLE" LEAVES FAR TOO MUCH ROOM TO INTERPRET IT RACIALLY AND ETHNICALLY. IF MEANT, THIS WOULD BE A MISNOMER IF APPLIED TO THE LIKES OF THE EGYPTIANS. FUNNY THAT YOU MENTION "AFRO-ASIATIC," IT APPEARS ONCE, WHEREAS "SEMITIC" APPEARS AS MANY TIMES AS IP ADDRESSES FROM THE LEVANT CONNECTED TO THIS PAGE. WHATEVER CLASSIFICATION YOU CHOOSE "AFRO-ASIATIC" OR "HAMITO-SEMITIC," EGYPTIANS HAVE SPENT MOST OF THEIR EXISTENCE OUTSIDE OF THE "SEMITIC SPEAKING WORLD". "SEMITIC" ARABIC CAME ONLY RECENTLY IN EGYPT'S LIFE-SPAN, AND THE PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT IT WERE MEAGRE IN LIGHT OF THE NUMBERS OF THE NATIVES. THEREFORE EGYPTIANS SPEAK A "SEMITIC" LANGUAGE BUT ARE PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS OF THE NATIVES WHO DID NOT SPEAK THIS SEMITIC LANGUAGE BEFORE IT ARRIVED IN THE 7TH CENTURY? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TAHRIR1550BC (talkcontribs) 20:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

TAHRIR1550BC, you make some interesting and likely valid points, but by doing so using upper-case throughout you make it very difficult to read what you have written. Further, as you may or may not be aware, the use of the upper-case generally constitutes shouting. It would be helpful to other readers and editors, therefore, and a courtesy to all, if you were to make all your future comments in lower case, capitalised only as needed.124.186.93.5 (talk) 01:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Provenance of Arab people

Most however have direct or partial ancestral relation to the nomadic indigenous inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula and the Syrian desert, known as Qahtanite and Adnanite Arabs.

On the face of it, this claim may seem plausible to the casual reader. To some, perhaps, it is self-evident. Nonetheless, it is unsupported by any citation. Further, it's important to distinguish between this assertion and the similar but not identical assertion that most or many of those who consider themselves Arabs would claim a direct or partial ancestral relation to the nomadic indigenous inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula and the Syrian Desert. In general, the transmission of cultural, linguistic, religious, scientific, technological and economic identifiers will be accompanied by the physical movement of warriors and traders, political leaders and administrators, religious leaders, clerics, scientists, technologists, philosophers, poets, artists, musicians and others. Nonetheless, the extent of the physical movement remains one of the most mysterious and important, interesting and largely unsolved questions of our time.124.186.93.5 (talk) 02:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Arab population

The Arab population section includes three countries that aren't member states of the Arab League (Chad, Eritrea, and Israel), yet does not include Comoros and Somalia, that needs to be fixed. Charles Essie (talk) 23:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That is because Somalis are a Cushitic ethnic group, and yes, while Somalia may be a member of the Arab League with Arabic as an official language, Somali people do not speak Arabic as a native tongue. You may be talking about Somalis of Arab descent.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 20:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior
The same could be said for most other residents of the Arab League, including the many North Africans of Berber, Egyptian and Nubian descent, Lebanese of Phoenician descent, Iraqis of Assyrian descent, etc. Arabs for the most part are just a confederation of various Afro-Asiatic groups that today speak Arabic (though not in the recent past). Lineal descendants of the original Arabic speakers are mostly confined to a few tribal areas in the Gulf region. Middayexpress (talk) 15:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Most Somalis don't speak Arabic today, if they did, they would be considered Arabs like i.e. Sudanians (who are very dark skinned).--Kohelet (talk) 00:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
PacificWarrior101 was right, I was asking for a percentage of people of Arab descent in Comoros and Somalia, considering they're members of the Arab League. Charles Essie (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

That mosaic needs some serious improvements....

Okay, so half the pictures aren't even licensed let alone that half the people aren't really good representative of the large Arab race. Restore the old mosaic and actually add some importants on there. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 23:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Absolutely agree, most of the images should be scrapped. We don't need all of those Arab monarchs. King Faisal I of Iraq will suffice. If we need a second one, I would suggest Faisal of Saudi Arabia or Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan. For presidents, Gamal Abdel Nasser should obviously be reinstated and should satisfy that category alone. If we need a second, I would suggest either Habib Bourguiba, Ahmed Ben Bella, Abd al-Karim Qasim (has some Kurdish him) or Shukri al-Quwatli. I'm just wary of adding too many heads of state. We should keep Asmahan (or Fairuz) and add Mohammed Abdel Wahab instead of Nancy Ajram and Mohamed Abdo. The footballers should be scrapped altogether unless there particularly notable. And if that's the case, only one should be kept. I think we should also include Michel Aflaq or Sati al-Husri who were leading philosophers of Arab identity and Muhammad Mahdi Al-Jawahiri (leading poet). If you have an alternative collages, please bring it forth, because the current one is flat out awful. As parameters (and this is just my opinion) I think we should go with a four row, four/five column set up and a diversity that includes people from at least most of the Arab states, and a decent blend between people of ancient/medieval and modern/contemporary eras. --Al Ameer (talk) 00:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
This may come in opposition with certain religious beliefs, but the Islamic prophet Muhammad should be in there as well, since John of Damascus was in there. There should also be Sultan Pasha al-Atrash, one of the biggest heroes of Syria and the Druze people.

But look, as for the Islamic prophet Muhammad, I do not see any reason for opposition, for images is against Christian ideals too but John of Damascus is in there, and Muhammad is the founder of the world's second largest growing religion. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 04:28, 10 August 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior

There's no good image of Muhammad, most likely because of the controversy in Islam. Also, there's already a picture of a Syrian Druze, Asmahan al-Atrash, so including her kinsman Sultan al-Atrash is unnecessary; I think Asmahan is preferable, because there's a lack of women in the collage. I reduced the number of columns, and added pictures of people from every major Arab country or subregion i.e. the Gulf. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:33, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Well for the Arab woman, Zenobia and the Queen of Sheba were good reprentatives, especially for Arab women rulers. I saw an article called Mohammaden, they actually included an artist's rendering of Muhammad, but although I can agree that nobody truly knows what Muhammad looked like. Adding a representative of every Arab nation is a good idea, then again it is oftenly difficult to represent every important figure of such a large race. You can probably bet people introduced in Chinese and Indian history can tell you the same.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Any depiction of the Queen of Sheba would be completely imaginative, and not any kind of historical portrait. Some might claim that she was a South Arabian, not an Arab as such (at least as far as language goes)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The infobox image has degenerated in exactly the way I feared it would if we made it possible to add individual images instead of having one compilation. Now a lot of inconsequential and controversial figures are popped in every once in a while, and we have useless/endless discussions about who to add. I think we should just revert back to the stable one (balanced in regard to origin, religion, occupation, etc.).[1] Sometimes less is more. Maybe add a third row of well-thought out figures to that, but no more. FunkMonk (talk) 04:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I seriously have nothing against having a mosaic of LOTS of people, take the French people article for example, look at their mosaic.

I actually can agree with Queen of Sheba, who was really more Ethiopian rather an Arab. But Jethro, the Midianite priest is perhaps another good ancient and pre-Islamic Arab, although there may not be any good pictures and one may have to crop the painting on his article.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 00:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

I put a proposal above some two months ago. It seems that things quite improved since then, however, I still have some objections; the fourth row seems entirely unnotable, excepting Tawakkul Karman. Personally, I heard about none of those people before, and their articles doesn't express much notability. As most of them are signers and musicians, we must have instead of them some Arab singing symbols like Fairouz, Umm Kulthum, or Abdel Halim Hafez. Or even some modern singers, like Maher Zain. I would suggest again adding some diaspora figures, like Carlos Slim and Carlos Menem. I would totally object a manner of adding one person per country, because many Arab countries are small and doesn't have a high cultural or historical influence on the region, while others are very large and can't be represented by a single figure. The selection should be only based on notability and, possibly, the field of prominence --aad_Dira (talk) 22:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC).
Yeah exactly, and we have a black Ethiopian Sheba Bilquis, who wasn't even an Arab - when we can actually have ACTUAL ARAB queens like Mavia and Zenobia. We need some sports figures there, like Salah Mejri, Majed Abdullah, Karim Benzema - I seriously see no need to be cutting or shortening the mosaic for Arab people. Again, look at the French people article's mosaic, it's large because there's a lot of notable French people like there are Arabs.

And with all respect to Islam, a lot of the Muslims need to realize that this isn't Islam Wiki, and I seriously think that a picture of the Islamic prophet Muhammad would be a good addition. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 21:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Who determines who goes in the mosaic?

So let me get this straight, my edits are reverted by a random IP user who doesn't even have a talk page. And where the hell are these "discussions" as to who should be in the mosaic? Gosh we have some serious buffoons running this article...PacificWarrior101 (talk) 00:16, 21 October 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

About Mohammed Abdo

Why put pictures of some personalities like Mohammed Abdo? There are a lot of Arab personalities that deserve to be placed instead of him, a person ethnically - descended from African origin --159.0.116.55 (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Most "Arabs" these days are part African due to the African-Slave trade that brought several million Africans into Arab lands in the past. So it matters not that that man shows some African features. You can find people in Saudi Arabia itself who look more African than he does. 107.222.205.242 (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Man, seriously this mosaic is filled up with some of the most random Arabs, let alone a few Medieval, two ancient antiquity Arabs and some prominent activists. The mosaic needs to be BIGGER to accomadate MORE people.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

please dont lie about arabs and your millionf of slave ! first of all slaves was eunuques wich mean arabs cuted there penis for those people dont reproduct ! so never say than most arabs have something in common with the afrian slave ! king abdullah of saudia arabia he is a pure arab the majority of the arabs people are still arab the only mixed people are about 0 & 10 %and those people are not considered as arabs but as slave ! si if you put a picture of an arab put picture of AN ARAB not a king of sudanese or somalian ! and i want to say that BALQIS the queen sheba was not arab she was part of south yemen and she was sabeans not arab so please remove his picture he had nothing in comon with th arabs and the arabs never enslaved million of peiple on their lands ! the arabs were navigator they had slave on sudan,comoros,east africa,west africa but not in their homeland the arabs leaved the arabic peninsula a enslaved people on their own country like sudanese and other ethncic.

Perhaps what you people think of this mosaic I've proposed?

In a reply to two conversions above this one, I propose a mosaic of 32 Arabs instead of 20, you can say it's a lot but come on, take a look at the Russians article, they got 32 because they are a big race like the Arabs and I believe 32 people should be a good deal for a large race.

32 Arabs.jpg


I've added Fairuz because I feel like she's a really good example of an assimilated Arab and she sings Pan-Arab music and Ralph Nader and Carlos Ghosn are diaspora Arabs and they both still speak Arabic as a native language.

I don't know why Sudan isn't represented on the current-existing mosaic so I've put two Sudanese figures on here Zainab Badawi who you can basically consider the Sudanese counterpart to Raghida Dergham, and John of Damascus is an important very important figure of the church, and Bilal ibn Rabah an Afro-Arab was the first to call Muslims to prayer.

As for Elagabalus and Julia Domna, they were still Roman emperors although not as prominent as Philip the Arab. I don't know why Zenobia isn't in the current mosaic either, apparently her descent meets a lot of controversy but Queen of Sheba's does too. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 19:13, 28 December 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101