Talk:Arc welding

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Former good article nominee Arc welding was a Engineering and technology good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
November 7, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed


Valuable Links for Welding[edit]

I would like to add an outbound link to two great guides and resources that deal with the proper preparation and selection of material on tungsten electrodes. The link is at: www.diamondground.com/downloads.html. Do you feel that this would be appropriate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.112.164.100 (talk) 20:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this sounds good. Lon of Oakdale (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Arc welding processes[edit]

  • Consummable electrode
    • Shielded metal arc welding
    • Gas metal arc welding (pulsed gas metal arc welding, short circuit gas metal arc welding)
    • Flux cored arc welding (gas-shielded flux cored arc welding, self-shielded flux cored arc welding)
    • Submerged arc welding (series submerged arc welding)
    • Electrogas welding
    • Bare metal arc welding
  • Non-consummable electrode
    • Gas tungsten arc welding (pulsed gas tungsten arc welding)
    • Plasma arc welding
    • Carbon arc welding (gas carbon arc welding, shielded carbon arc welding, twin carbon arc welding)
    • Arc stud welding
    • Atomic hydrogen welding
    • Magnetically impelled arc welding

According to AWS master chart on p21. Cary & Helzer --Spangineer (háblame) 15:09, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

German attack on New York harbor during WWI[edit]

As far as I can tell no such event ever happened. I don't know enough on the subject of arc welding to feel comfortable editing this page so if someone could take a look at it that would be great.

Andrew m plamondon 01:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

That comes from a welding textbook that says, "German ships interned in New York Harbor at the outbreak of the war had been scuttled by their crews so that the vessels could not be used in the Allied war effort." The wording is rather poor, since "attack" implies an offensive from the outside, but technically the Germans did damage to the US through this. I'll see about fixing the wording. —Spangineer[es] (háblame) 05:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Hidden references[edit]

Why are the inline citations in this article hidden? Wouldn't it be better if they were in a form like the recently featured Gas tungsten arc welding or Gas metal arc welding? QmunkE 09:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably would be better if they were visible, yes; I just haven't gotten around to converting them. --Spangineeres (háblame) 12:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

any possibilty of cross referencing Inverter power source's for welding?(Wouse101 22:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC))

Safety Issues[edit]

Hexavalent chromium is a new issue in welding safety and protocal. OSHA has begun to set standards and limit exposure to hexavalent chromium. It's a large issue at my work place presently.

(ROBZZZ 15:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC))

OSHA Reference

"New" is a bit inappropriate here, it was well-known when I was working in a research team in 1980. I vaguely remember that measuring the hexavalent chromiumn content was difficult for some reason. rudy 22:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I merely meant that it is now receiving more press. I'm fully aware that it's not new. I should've worded it differently. Of course I wrongly implied that exposure is due only to welding. It can come from cutting and grinding as well.(ROBZZZ 18:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC))


given the importance of SMAW welding, I would have thought that it would have rated more than a paragraph dismissing it as obsoleteRvannatta 00:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is there nothing here about radiation burns on the skin? Im a welder and atm im pealing of dead skin from parts of my body that where left exposed by accident.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.226.207.185 (talk) 09:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Temperature[edit]

I was hoping to find some information about the temperatures that arc welding can create. Also, temperature gradients, that is to say, how focused the temperature is, would also be interesting. Come to think of it, I would like to know about typical energy requirements and the definition of low and high penetration. Lon of Oakdale (talk) 19:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

just google arc temperatures —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericg33 (talkcontribs) 08:20, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Arc welding/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Starting GAR.Pyrotec (talk) 19:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Initial review[edit]

The article is quite readable and has a number of relevant illustrations. So on these scores its acceptable for GA.

My main concern is WP:Verify. The article has in-line citations for the "practical" aspects of arc welding, but not very much on other aspects. For example:

  • statements about forge welding unrefenced
  • Humphry Davy unreferenced
  • Welding of ships in WW I

I suspect that I may put the article's GAR On Hold until these problems are fixed.Pyrotec (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

They are actually covered in refs 1 & 4 respectively. Nergaal (talk) 04:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

GAR On Hold[edit]

Overall this article has a wide scope and reasonable prose; and it appears to be of the right level of detail to gain GA-status.

It forms part of a series of articles on welding; with several common blocks of text used in multiple articles. Some of these other welding articles, with common text, have long standing FA-status, e.g. Welding - May 2005, Gas metal arc welding - September 2005, Shielded metal arc welding - February 2006. However, under the current guidelines this particular article is possibly marginal in respect of WP:Verify and possibly Scope.

Specific problems (possibly common amongst several welding articles):

  • Vagueness of dates - not all statements have in-line citations.
    • discovery of electric arc by Davy given as 1800, another ref in my possession states 1808.
    • The Fullagar, misspelt as Fulagar appears to be post WW I, not actually WW I. So I corrected & copedited this part.
  • Typical welding currents and voltages are absent from the Power Supplies section.
  • The Welding operation is not discussed - a summary of e.g. Shielded metal arc welding#Operation provides an example of how this might be covered.
  • No discussion of types of welds, such as butt weld, lap welds, etc, - Welding#Geometry provides a example of how this might be covered.
  • No discussion of the problems that can be caused by the heat of welding, such a bending and distortion of the work pieces; and how this might be addresses during welding operations.
  • No discussion of the various coatings of the electrodes - Shielded metal arc welding#Electrode provides an example of how this might be covered.

For these reasons, I'm keeping the article on On Hold, but I will reset to date today's date.

I'm sorry if this appears harsh in the light of other welding articles that currently have FA status; as these other welding articles do have some "common problems".Pyrotec (talk) 18:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

GAR[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    Article lacks adequate references in some sections, whilst other sections, such as Development and Consumable electrode modes, are well referenced.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Article lacks adequate in-line citations in some sections; and some of the statements made are wrong or historically inaccurate.
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    A wide range, but a number of areas that aught to be in it are missing.
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    {{#if:This welding article is one of a whole series of articles on welding; many of which share common blocks of text. Many of these shared text blocks, some of which are under-referenced and/or inaccurate, also appear in a number of welding articles that were awarded FA status in 2005/6 and which aught to be reviewed (and downgraded where appropriate).Pyrotec (talk) 08:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|This welding article is one of a whole series of articles on welding; many of which share common blocks of text. Many of these shared text blocks, some of which are under-referenced and/or inaccurate, also appear in a number of welding articles that were awarded FA status in 2005/6 and which aught to be reviewed (and downgraded where appropriate). The article was put On Hold for these to be addressed - no action took place, so the article fails.Pyrotec (talk) 08:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Stick Welding questions[edit]

Unlike many technical Wiki subjects: Excellent article! I am so tired of chemists exclusively showing off to other chemists, and the like.

section: Consumable electrode methods

"...(SMAW), which is also known as manual metal arc welding (MMA) or stick welding." "The process is very versatile, requiring little operator training and inexpensive equipment."

Good! This is just the info I'm looking for! (More specifically, I'm seeking to learn the minimum requirements needed for a usable entry level (household-hobby) welder. The ability to occasionally weld up to 1/4 inch plate, or nearly, would be nice.)

To me use of the word "possible" below obscures much practical information from that promising concept:

"Furthermore, the process is generally limited to welding ferrous materials, though specialty electrodes have made possible the welding of cast iron, nickel, aluminium, copper and other metals."

...for example, does "possible" mean possible but difficult, possible with expensive equipment, or does it mean the difficulties have been removed? I'm particularly interested in welding cast iron with an entry-level welder (which seems almost an implied topic or question with stick welding).

Also, in arc welder specifications I often see things like:

  • Full Load Amps 20
  • Output Amps 80
  • Duty Cycle 35% at 80 amps, 60% at 65 amps, 100% at 50 amps

While I understand amps and duty cycle in electronics, I read a comment that said 50% duty cycle in arc welders means 5 minutes on, 5 minutes off! Huh!? ...so does say; 50% duty cycle here imply I'll be waiting around for it to cool off or something? Or is my gut right in thinking that the 100% 50 amp rating is just the real, or most practical rating and the other figures are continuous heat but from a practical view, mostly just technical shenanigans? ...or what?

Thanks again! Doug Bashford--68.127.85.141 (talk) 15:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Added Duty cycle question. Doug Bashford--68.127.85.141 (talk) 16:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


After a year, most of those questions seem to remain unanswered. This seems to fall within two broad categories, the article is : 1)too vague or abstract, 2) too manufacturing-environment or professional centered, meaning the nonspecialist reader's questions (reason for seeking Wikipedia,) may not be addressed.

To be less vague or abstract, for example, it seems like there aught to be at least some clues or pointers here to decipher or make some sense out of some of these commonly found descriptions of arc welders:
compare different arc welders:

Input: 120 volts, 20 amps (120 volts), 21 amps (240 volts) amps, single phase, 60 Hz
Rated output current: 10 to 80 amps
Rated output voltage: 27 volts
Max open circuit voltage: 60 volts
Duty cycle: 35% @ 75 amps


Input: 240 volts, 33 amps (AC), 35 amps (DC) amps, single phase, 60 Hz
Rated output current: 55 to 135 amps (AC), 30 to 105 amps (DC)
Rated output voltage: 15 volts @ 110 amps
Max open circuit voltage: 68 volts (AC), 60 volts (DC)
Duty cycle: 30% @ 110 amps


Input: 240 volts, 30 amps, single phase, 60 Hz
Rated output current: 35 to 140 amps
Rated output voltage: 16 volts @ 140 amps
Max open circuit voltage: 32 volts
Duty cycle: 40% @ 140 amps


Input: 120/240 volts, 20 amps (120 volts), 21 amps (240 volts) amps, single phase, 60 Hz
Output current: 30 to 70 amps @ 120 volts, 30 to 120 amps @ 240 volts
Rated output voltage: 22 volts @ 70 amps (120 volts), 19 volts @ 100 amps (240 volts)
Max open circuit voltage: 47.5 volts
Duty cycle: 15% @ 65 amps (120 volts), 6% @ 95 amps (240 volts)

While those arc welders represent a 300% price difference, which of those descriptions best reflect performance differences?...and why/how?

I'd think every expert arc welder already knows that, it might even seem trivial. (Yes, it's basic stuff.) Perhaps that example is too specific, I don't know, but I'm speaking generally. There seems to be a big hole about arc welding in the article.
--68.127.84.95 (talk) 19:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)Doug Bashford


OK, I started new section "2.1 Home and Hobby Power supplies" and defined Duty Cycle and why knowing it is not important to commercial welders. It's just a start, a stub. Other specifications are needed.
--68.127.84.95 (talk) 00:59, 26 August 2011 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Explanation of some edits[edit]

"and/or an evaporating filler material" - This is wholly incorrect. The use of a slag producing flux can shield the weld in the absence of a shielding gas. Shielding in this method is by fumes given off by the burning flux displacing the air local to the weld, and/or by the molten slag produced by the melting flux providing a physical barrier between the molten weld and the air.

"The process of arc welding is widely used because of its low capital and running costs." - As compared with what? Bolting? Riveting? Adhesives? Other welding processes? Also there is a large variation in capital investment and running costs associated with each arc welding process. Statement removed for this reason.

"Getting the arc started is called striking the arc. An arc may be struck by either lightly tapping the electrode against the metal or scratching the electrode against the metal at high speed." - There are many ways of striking an arc, and it varies from process to process. There is no uniform method that will work for all arc welding processes. Statement removed for this reason.

Development

"Main articles: forge welding, resistance welding, oxyfuel welding, and Gas tungsten arc welding" - why is GTAW included here? No change made at this time.

"Typical currents are 50 to 500 amps, depending on the size of weld required; 100 amps is typical for manual welders.[13] Voltage output is typically 20 to 50 volts during welding,[14] though some power supplies also include a small high voltage source to aid in initially striking the arc." - Listing typical voltage and amperage is meaningless without other information such as process, polarity, and electrode size. Statement removed for this reason.

Consumable electrode methods

"...flux that protects the weld area from oxidation and contamination by producing CO2 gas during the welding process." - Copied wording from the SMAW article. The burning flux gives off more than CO2, and the slag also serves to protect the molten weld.

"Flux cored wire generates an effective gas shield precisely at the weld site, permitting application involving more windy conditions or contaminated materials, however the flux cored wire leaves a slag residue and is more expensive than solid wire.[1]" - Copied wording from the FCAW article. Not all FCAW electrodes generate shielding gas, some do require externally supplied shielding gas.

"In-position welding is not possible with SAW." - This statement in unclear for the following reasons: The weldment must be positioned so that the joint to be welded is "in position". A joint is said to be "in position" when it is in the 1F, 2F, or 1G position. SAW welds must be made in position, meaning that the weldment must be flipped over, or in the case of cylindrical parts (such as many pressure vessels) turned on a rotary positioner during welding of the circumferential joints.

A mention of the ANSI minimum protective shade chart could be a valuable addition to the safety section. No action taken at this time. http://www.thefabricator.com/article/safety/selecting-the-best-lens-for-welders-eye-protection

All the above this section Static-XJ (talk) 05:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)


Quote:
"Listing typical voltage and amperage is meaningless without other information such as process, polarity, and electrode size. Statement removed for this reason."
No, it is far MORE meaningless being absent. Please revert that, or better yet make the repairs you think are needed. That kind of info is why I came here, (and as I just complained elsewhere;) and there is a big hole regarding power requirements. Anybody can delete another's effort ....but please don't let wishing for the perfect; ruin the good.
68.127.84.95 (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)Doug Bashford


Sorry - I normally just edit articles, but this one is locked (really? arc welding is locked?) and I don't see any discussion on changes. Anyhow, hopefully someone will delete this comment and make the required fix. Under consumable electrode methods, a sentence reads: "serve as a shielding gas and providing a layer of slag". This is incorrect grammar. An easy fix would be to change "providing" to "provide". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.75.253.60 (talk) 10:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Safety Issues section[edit]

While on counter-vandalism patrol, STiki taged the safety issues section deletion as possible vandalism. Someone, with a one edit IP address, blanked the entire section. I reverted the edit. If this was an agreed upon edit, please discuss below and revert the change. Thanks. Geraldshields11 (talk) 02:20, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Visualization[edit]

If somebody wants to visualize an electron flow arc, a reverse polarity arc weld is the place to see it! The impact of the electron flow against the weld surface can be seen to be heating up the joint material and pushing it away from the point of contact. And the quality of the weld can be sensed by the quality of the metal build up within the weld and by the smoothness of the welding process.WFPM (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
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