Talk:Armenian Genocide

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Erdoğan statement update[edit]

Pretty notable [1]Lihaas (talk) 15:05, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Étienne Dolet (talk) 16:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

100th anniversary next year[edit]

Next year will be the 100th anniversary of the state of the genocide It would be nice to see the article improved to FA status and to have it as the TFA on that day. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:06, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Harizotoh9 That has always been my dream. I managed to get the Armenian Genocide map nominated to FP level and I have it scheduled to be displayed on the front page on April 24, 2015 (see here: Template:POTD/2015-04-24). When it comes to this article, I have observed that it has too many formatting inconsistencies with the references and all. There's also way too many references in the lead. Some sections are just way too short others way too long. There's a lot of information that isn't significant enough to be there. But I am willing to nominate it for GA which is a good start. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

1.5 million?[edit]

As a neutral reader I have a vital question. Is this amount of 1.5 million scientifically proven? Or are we reading propaganda? Why 1.5 million? Why is it not 5.000.000? Or 200.000? Or 600.000? Or 1.45 million? Or 2 million? All the sources merely contain statements, there is no source to a scientific research.

What is the methodology behind this 1.5 million? Are those the bodies coming out of graves? Are people who died a natural death included in this? Armenians who starved due to the lack of food which happened universally across the Ottoman Empire during World War I, and considering a similar percentage of Turks and Kurds died of starvage as well, are those included in this number of 1.5 million?

As a neutral reader I feel this article loses a lot of value because of the lack of proper methodology for the most important part of the article: the number of casualties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.75.32.124 (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Let me try to help you in your perplexity as a neutral reader: scientifically speaking it could not have been 5 million because there weren't that many Armenians in Turkey at the time. Continuing our science, it was not 200,000 or 600,000 because Talat's "Black Book" shows nearly a million victims at just the half way point in the Genocide. Since the Genocide continued after World War I ended, 1.5 million victims is a conservative estimate. Most of the scientific methodology that bears on the subject was monopolized by the Ottoman government in systematically destroying the Armenian people and then covering over its tracks. Nevertheless, competent and honest scholars can see through that sort of thing. Diranakir (talk) 19:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Talat's "Black Book" is not about casualties. I have knowledge of Talat's "Black Book" and it is about the relocation of 924,158 Armenians and 702,905 Turks. If Talat's "Black Book" is a valid source, then according to that logic the Turks have commited a genocide on at least 700.000 Turks as well. I was actually talking about a methodology for the casualties of among for example those 924,158 Armenians, for the only proof Talat's "Black Book" provides is that they have been relocated, not that they have died, or have even been injured. And above all, if 1 million people died "half way" it does not provide a scientific fundament that 500.000 people die "the other half".
Furthermore, things like "scientific methodology that bears on the subject was monopolized by the Ottoman government" or "it's a conservative estimate" don't run in the scientific world, maybe at your high school it does. If the evidence is destroyed, then the evidence is destroyed and the number of victims is unknown. You can't just go around throwing numbers. I am not denying the genocide by the way, because you sound rather defensive, the genocide can also have happened with an unknown number of victims. My question is just, there is a number of 1.5 million, and not 1.45 or 1.55 million, what is the methodology for this exact number? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.75.32.124 (talk) 01:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Another note about Talat's "Black Book". When calculating losses, it should be remembered that the difference between the population figures prior and after 1915 does not only indicate the number of those who lost their lives during relocation, but also includes those who chose to leave the country and go to Russia during combats [as Armenians deserted the Ottoman Army, changed sides under leadership of Karakin Pastermadjian (Armen Garo) and fought with Turks on the side of Russians. It should be noted that next to the people who have deserted to the Russian Army or have died in combat, 644.900 Armenians returned home after Moudros Armistice in 1918 as stated in US archival documents. This is copy-pasted from the Wikipedia page of Talat's "Black Book", the sources are available there. This means that Talat's "Black Book" leads to nowhere even NEAR the 1.5 million casualties that is claimed in this article.
Since it's a "conservative estimate", I'm sure that there are more reliable researches available for this number if it is so "conservative".--82.75.32.124 (talk) 01:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm the guy up there, made an account. In this article itself is stated: "While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 600,000,[87] to 1,500,000 (per Western scholars,[88] Argentina,[89] and other states)." If the lowest consensus is 500,000 than the number of casualties should be 500,000 - 1.5 million. So why does it say "Deaths: 1.5 million" if there is not even a slight consensus over that number, and if even in the article itself different numbers are given? I think it will be much easier for the Turks to accept the genocide if there is a scientific foundation. But in this article so far there is none, especially for the number of 1.5 million, which is a vital element for the acceptation or denial of this issue. This article needs to be more based on science, so far it just seems a sum of statements, and that only works in the favor of the Turks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Behzat (talkcontribs) 10:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Behzat, could you please stick to encyclopedic content and refrain from political statements like "that only works in the favor of the Turks". This is not a forum. Regards. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 10:48, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
You are right! An article based on a sum of statements does not work in anyone's favor. Wikipedia is a major source for information for many people, it would be so nice if this article could come to a scientific level where it is undeniable.--Behzat (talk) 11:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


I'm still waiting for either a proper reply or an edit. The number 1.5 million is based on statements and not a research as far as it's clear in this article, and therefore it is wrong to present it as a fact. Even in the notes there is stated "however, estimates vary from 600,000 to 1,800,000", so it would be nice if the top could be adjusted as well. Furthermore, George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. And Bruce Wein mentioned in one of his articles that "the best contemporary estimates by Armenians or their sympathizers were 300,000-750,000", so it goes as low as 300,000 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/lies-damn-lies-and-armeni_b_211408.html). I have also repeatedly read in articles about estimates as high as 2,000,000. Therefore the politically correct range should be 300,000 - 2,000,000, but whether you'd like to be politically correct or politically biased is your own choice, the top should be edited, according to the present information in this article to 600,000 - 1,800,000, and politically correct to 300,000 to 2,000,000. --82.75.32.124 (talk) 20:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The 600,000 figure stems from a report Toynbee drafted claiming that 600,000 Armenians died accounts only until 1916, which is merely the first year of the Armenian Genocide. This figure jives with initial reports of 500,000 dead in the first 5 months alone ([2][3][4][5]). By the end of the Armenian Genocide, those who attest to the death of 1.5 million Armenians do not include only the number of Ottoman Armenian citizens but Russian Armenian citizens as well since the Ottoman government took the willful steps of annihilating not only the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, but outside of its dominions as well (i.e. Russia, First Republic of Armenia, and etc.). German Military Plenipotentiary in the Ottoman Empire Otto von Lossow proclaimed that the "The Turks have embarked upon the total extermination of the Armenians in Transcaucasia", "Talaat's government party wants to destroy all Armenians not only in Turkey, but also outside Turkey", and that "On the basis of all the reports and news coming to me here in Tiflis there hardly can be any doubt that the Turks systematically are aiming at the extermination of the few hundred thousand Armenians whom they left alive until now."([6][7][8]) Even the international community reported massacres that were made outside of the dominions of the Ottoman empire in 1918 (see this New York Tribune article). In light of this, allies to the Ottoman Empire, such as German major Carl Franz Endres who served in the Turkish army, estimated the number of Ottoman Armenian deaths as 1.2 million, which excludes Russian Armenian deaths (Carl Franz Endres, Die Türkei. Munich, CH Beck, 1918, p. 161). The French ran their own investigative commissions after World War I and proclaimed the death of 1.5 million in 1919 ([9]). Most sources, if not all, attest to the death of at least a million Ottoman Armenian citizens. 1.5 million is the widely accepted figure, as already mentioned in the article. If we assess the number of Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire in 1914 as 1.9 to 2 million, these numbers are fairly accurate with respects to the additional hundreds of thousands of Russian Armenians that were massacred as well. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, it is a proper one and I appreciate it, but still I see some flaws. First of all, all the "500,000 deaths" sources refer to news articles from the Allied side who were engaged in a world war against the Ottoman Empire, and more importantly, without a clear source (to for example a research). It is safe to assume that this is propaganda to influence the public opinion, especially considering none of the articles criticize the fact that the number 500,000 is unfounded. Just like news articles from the Nazi's are not reliable sources to criticize the Jews, news articles from the Allied side are (to me at least) not fully reliable to judge the actions of either the Germans or the Ottomans. I have not read the books you refer to, but I will read them and leave a reply here as soon as I see a chance to do so. And I know a lot of sources refer to 1.5 million, but a thousand years ago most sources said the earth was flat. What I am really interested in is where this number 1.5 million comes from, because as far as it seems to me it comes from a statement that is thrown in public by either a person or a news paper, and not a research. By the way, the news article of the French investigation is impossible to read because the file is really too small, do you perhaps have other sources for this article?

Furthermore, in 1912 the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was counted by the Armenian Patriarchate(!) as 1,018,000 ([10]). Nowhere in history has ever happened that such a large population doubled within 3 to 6 years. Was the census of the Armenian Patriarchate that lead to 1 million a lie or is the estimation of 1.9-2.0 million a lie? And that statements(!) claim Ottomans were interested in killing Armenians outside of their empire is interesting, but fortunately that was not within their power. The Russian political and military situation was far superior to that of the Ottomans in 1915-1918, without the Russian permission Talaat Pasha's army could not have operated within Russia. And as far as I know the Ottoman Army has never operated on Russian territory on the other side of the front, where they were losing battle after battle. So involving this sounds to me as ridiculous as blaming deaths within the United States on the Germans, the Germans simply had no power in the US just as Ottomans had no power within Russia. Perhaps these Russian Armenians died on the front with a weapon in their hands? I hope you understand that in that case they can not be counted in the amount of casualties of the genocide. How did Carl Franz Endres get to this number? Under what circumstances did he say this? During the war? Or afterwards when he was hoping for amnesty?

I am sorry for having so many questions and remarks, but as I said, a thousand years ago everybody on earth thought the earth was flat, I am seriously interested in the real situation with a solid undeniable foundation. --82.75.32.124 (talk) 12:37, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

You raise many points which I'll address one by one:
  1. America wasn't engaged in World War I until 1917. So there should be no reason for a "propaganda war". As I have already said, this number can be easily verified with other sources including Toynbee's report. 500,000 is a relatively accurate figure for the first 5 months.
  2. Renewed efforts of massacre actually started when Russian troops withdrew in 1917-8 with the signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk on 3 March 1918. With the withdrawal of Russian troops, the Ottoman army under the Army of Islam led by Vehip Pasha's Third Army invaded the former occupied Russian territory and reached the Armenian frontier where Turkish troops were just 25 km outside of Yerevan threatening to annihilate what was left of the Armenian nation. Meanwhile, reports of massacre were rampant as Turkish troops got rid of all those in their way. The United Nations estimates 100,000 died in the process ([11]). Allies to the Ottoman Empire, such as Otto von Lossow (as aforementioned), Ernst Paquin, Marshall Hindenberg, Foreign Minister of Germany Richard von Kuhlmann, Kress von Kressenstein, and others, make note of the obstinate attempts at annihilation through various methods including forced starvation, forced assimilation, and outright massacre. Even high-ranking members of the Turkish army, such as Halil Kut, proclaimed in the summer of 1918 in front of thousands of Armenians in Yerevan that "I have endeavored to wipe out the Armenian nation to the last individual"([12][13][14]) More importantly, Vehip Pasha, the main responsible figure of the invasion and liquidation of the Armenians in Eastern Armenia confessed during his testimony at the Trabzon trials that the massacres were systematically organized:[15]

"In summary, here are my convictions. The Armenian deportations were carried out in a manner entirely unbecoming to humanity, civilization, and government. The massacre and annihilation of the Armenians, and the looting and plunder of their properties were the result of the decision of the Central Committee of Ittihad and Terakki. The butchers of human beings, who operated in the command zone of the Third Army, were procured and engaged by Dr. Bahattin Şakir. The high ranking governmental officials did submit to his directives and order...He stopped by at all major centers where he orally transmitted his instructions to the party's local bodies and to the governmental authorities."

3. The Patriarchate statistics of 1912 is widely used by denialists to "combat" the 1.5 million figure. This figure is accurate but it doesn't provide a full assessment. For one: the census of the Patriarchate only assesses the number of Armenians living the six vilayets and excludes all others. Therefore, the Armenians of Adana, Adapazar, Edirne, Constantinople, Konya, Ankara, Bursa, Izmir, and other important locations of deportation are not taken into account. Let us not forget that these were also sizable Armenian communities. Ankara alone had an estimated 100,000 Armenians. Two: the 1912 census includes Armenians that only belong to the Apostolic Armenian Church and is based largely off of the death, birth, and baptismal records provided by the local Church in each district. Hence, the figure is low. On the other hand, the statistics of the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople in 1913-14 shows slightly more than 1,914,000. This second census is much more comprehensive as it was in preparation for the Armenian reform package and included Catholic, Protestant, and others alike.
4. The 1.5 million figure largely stems from German and Austro-Hungarian sources. The figure was mentioned by the Ottoman government during the Yozgat trial,([16]) and before the Permanent Peoples' Tribunal([17]), Toynbee states 1.2 million in 1917 ([18]), and Rafael de Nogales Méndez estimates 1.3 million. I can go on and on. But more importantly, would this change the basic truth that a genocidal massacre occurred in 1915-1923? Almost the entire Armenian population of Turkey was wiped out by its own government, the Turkish government. Does it really make the actions of Turkey better if they succeeded in killing only 600,000 Armenians and not 1.5 million? In any case, it was genocide. By 1923 the entire landmass of Asia Minor and historic Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey) had been expunged of its Armenian population. The destruction of the Armenian communities in this part of the world was total. As for this article, there is no reason not to believe that 1.5 million is the most widely used figure to assess the number of those killed. This figure, as provided above, is fairly accurate and verifiable with third-party contemporaneous reports, investigative committees, and censuses. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
It is a waste of time addressing the points of a user [82.75.32.124] who does not leave a complete WP signature beneath his comments in accord with TP guidelines. If he thinks he has a more accurate figure for the victims of the Armenian Genocide let him simply state it with his supporting evidence, in the form: "So and so many Armenians were killed in the Armenian Genocide, no more nor less". Diranakir (talk) 23:59, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Diranakir I disagree. The status of his talk page has nothing to do with the validity of his statement. He brought up interesting points in relation to the number of people killed in the genocide. He makes a great point that the range of Armenians killed need to be adjusted. Also, he already states sources for the varying death tolls, so it is not like he is making up facts. My opinion is that the differences in death statistics should be discussed within the article. That would solve the official death toll headache. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@PointsofNoReturn: The article already has a note next to the 1.5 million figure that states: "1.5 million is the most accepted number, however, estimates vary from 600,000 to 1,800,000". There's also an entire section on "Armenian population, deaths, survivors, 1914 to 1918" which further elaborates on this point. So how does this article not encompass a broad and varied assessment in terms of the number of those dead/killed and of those who have survived? Also, I suggest you (re)read my refutation of his claims above which the IP address hasn't even bothered responding to. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@Étienne Dolet: The article mentions all the possible casualty tolls, perhaps in a different section, since this is a contested issue. That would solve the whole controversy. Precedence exists in the Joseph Stalin article in which an entire section is devoted to the number of Stalin's victims. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 15:14, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@PointsofNoReturn: There's an entire section devoted in this article as well. The "Armenian population, deaths, survivors, 1914 to 1918" section assesses the pre-War population of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and the casualties of the Armenian during the Genocide. This includes statistics and assessments from various contemporary academics, both denalist and non-denialists alike. The section is also coupled with contemporaneous reports and assessments of causalities of the Armenian population. If that's not enough, there's an entire article devoted to Ottoman Armenian casualties. I don't really see any reason why we should debate over this. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:22, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough. Lets just get to a consensus on what statistic we use. Thats all I'm asking for. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

@PointsofNoReturn: You may disagree all you want, but the fact remains that it is a violation of the TP guidelines to leave comments unsigned, which user 82.75.32.124 has done at least 9 times in a row so far. In fact his "signature" has by now become the absence of a signature. You may think it is a good idea to respond to his wide-ranging and often flippant comments because you find something "great" or "interestiing" in them (for instance, his reference to "flat earth" beliefs a thousand years ago, or his saying "if the evidence has been destroyed, it has been destroyed") but responding to such anonymous comments only throws the gate wide open to all kinds of irresponsible users to do the same. For this very reason, I am quite perplexed about the special invitation for comment posted above, which seems based largely on your favored user's anonymous comments. If you think the guideline for signing posts is superfluous then maybe you should make a formal request to eliminate it. But I would like to know a little more about the user you defend and see the quality of his other contributions (if he has any) to get a better understanding of the quality of his thought and methods. I will now ask you to state in your own words what number of Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide and whether that number can be taken as a "fact" (which has been made much of above) or an estimate. In other words my question to you: What would the figure look like after your "adjustments" you are made?


@PointsofNoReturn: You may disagree all you want, but the fact remains that it is a violation of the TP guidelines to leave comments unsigned, which user 82.75.32.124 has done at least 9 times in a row so far. In fact his "signature" has by now become the absence of a signature. You may think it is a good idea to respond to his wide-ranging and often flippant comments because you find something "great" or "interestiing" in them (for instance, his reference to "flat earth" beliefs a thousand years ago, or his saying "if the evidence has been destroyed, it has been destroyed") but responding to such anonymous comments only throws the gate wide open to all kinds of irresponsible users to do the same. For this very reason, I am quite perplexed about the special invitation for comment posted above, which seems based largely on your favored user's anonymous comments. If you think the guideline for signing posts is superfluous then maybe you should make a formal request to eliminate it. But I would like to know a little more about the user you defend and see the quality of his other contributions (if he has any) to get a better understanding of the quality of his thought and methods. I will now ask you to state in your own words what number of Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide and whether that number can be taken as a "fact" (which has been made much of above) or an estimate. In other words my question to you: What would the figure look like after your "adjustments" you are made? Diranakir (talk) 19:29, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

@Diranakir: First off, the ip user you are describing is a new user. How would he know what guidelines to follow in the beginning? Also, that is what the unsigned comment bot is for. You cannot just discount the content of his comment just because he is a new user. Do not bite the new user. As to your question on what statistic should be used, I am okay with whatever statistic is decided upon as long as there is a consensus on it. Personally, I would prefer to describe the death statistic controversy similar to the way it is in the article, only with the new information from the ip user condensed down into article section size. In other words, all I am saying is that we should just simply agree on a statistic and go with it. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

@PointsofNoReturn: "How would he know?" Simple, by reading and taking seriously the guidelines prominently displayed at the top of this page! You have still not directly answered my question. All your response makes clear is that you fully embrace the new user's doubts about the figures used in the article, while neither of you is specific about how many Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide or what "adjustment" should be made. You say you are okay with whatever statistic as long as there is consensus on it. Well, guess what: 1 to 1.5 million is the outcome of a long-standing consensus! How do you think it got there? Are you now asking for a whole new consensus, because you don't care for the one presently reflected in the article? Diranakir (talk) 22:16, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@Diranakir: I never said I was unhappy with the current statistic. I simply want a consensus. I don't really care what statistic is used as long as everyone agrees to use it. Also, I do not think new users would check the guidelines immediately. He also signed his last post so leave him alone. My only real problem is that you are biting the new user on a technicality. He signed his later posts, leave him alone. Use whatever statistic everyone agrees upon, I do not have an opinion on it. I only ask that you at least consider his objections instead of ignoring them because its a new user. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:51, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

@PointsofNoReturn: As I said, 1 to 1.5 million is based on consensus. Therefore pleading for consensus is misplaced. I do expect that most new users would check the guidelines. I am not "biting a new user", which implies intimidating a naive newcomer. This new user seems to have a lot to say and the determination to say it and I have no power over him except my reasoning. I don't know what you mean when you say he signed his latest posts. I don't see where. Please clarify. On "considering" his objections, I would expect a man who has so many objections to have some idea of what the right figure would be. He should indicate that over a full signature. Otherwise all we have is a flotilla of objections leading to oblivion. Diranakir (talk) 00:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

@Diranakir: If that is the statistic everyone agrees on, I am all for it. Also, all you need to do is scroll up to find that he actually signed his later posts in this thread. You are intimidating the new user by lecturing him over signing his talk posts, which he already began to do on his own. Leave him alone. Also, the ip user actually provided sources in his later posts. Seeing that a section already exists regarding the exact death toll, I see no reason why we cannot simply incorporate some of the ip user's objections into that section. I do not see why we need to rigidly cling to one number. We could simply state that 1 to 1.5 million is the accepted number, but...(other estimates). However, perhaps that is best for the article on the death toll. Anyway, that is up to you guys. I'll check back later to see what everyone decided on, but I do not care what the decision is as long as everyone agrees on it. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:08, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Then I suggest to resolve this matter on Diranakir's Talk Page since the concerns you have mentioned have little to do with the article. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:10, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Point taken. Issue already resolved. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Choice of pictures[edit]

There are hundreds upon hundreds of suitable pictures regarding the Armenian Genocide, there is no reason to choose the one whose factual accuracy is questionable.--Kathovo talk 08:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

My argument here isn't whether the photograph is forged or not. We'll let the academics handle that. My concern is whether the photograph is significant and notable enough to be included in the article. Believe me, I don't mind if it's placed in the article or not. But being considered as one of 20 Photographs That Will Leave You Speechless, I think it's pretty notable especially when it pertains to the article. As for the discussion on the talk page of the photo, the AfD was done by a highly disruptive editor who has been indefinitely topic banned under AA2 and ARBMAC topics. I can hardly believe that his attempt at deletion was sincere. Besides, you can't delete photographs just because you think it's forged. Étienne Dolet (talk) 10:15, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
That photo is a well-known fake. Or rather, it began as a simulation of an event, created for fund-raising purposes in the immediate aftermath of the Genocide, and then, in later decades, either its origin was forgotten (or was deliberately overlooked) and it became used as an actual representation of a real event. We are not talking about deleting the photo, just removing it from the article. Having it used in the article in the way it was being used is not going to help that aspiration to GA status you talked about earlier. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Sure, I don't mind removing it for now then. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Issues with refs[edit]

I am really happy over the recent copy-edits by various users over the content of the article. I hope this collective effort will bring about the GA status the article will hopefully attain. However, I find the refs the biggest concern here. They are really disorganized and not formatted correctly. It really pains me to see the article this way. If the article doesn't have a consistent format in terms of references, I don't think it'll pass FA. For example: see ref 64 and 65. These two refs refer to the page number right beside the citation number in the end of the sentence. While, on the other hand, ref 101 has the page number in the reference itself. So we need to make a very wise decision as to which format should we use if we want to get this past FA. I can assure you, once the inconsistencies with the references is solved, the FA process will be smooth-sailing. @Diranakir: Armen Ohanian (talk · contribs): thoughts? Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC) The references are really messy, to put it mildly. I believe that the best and faster way would be to unify the references to the author-title-place-editorial-year-page format, which I have seen used in many places (e.g. Vahakn Dadrian, History of the Armenian Genocide, London-Providence, Berghahn Books, 1995, p. 270), without the ridiculous page number in the reference or any other thing that requires additional formatting.

To Dolet and Ohanian: I think Ohanian's suggestion is clearly the best solution to the messy references problem. Another matter: Talaat vs. Talat. The article is peppered with both, a serious flaw. WP seems to prefer "Talaat". The spelling should be consistent throughout. Your ideas on that. Diranakir (talk) 00:53, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
We have to do what WP has chosen. So I guess changing all that Talat's in Talaat's would be a primary choice. But we need to also check which name is more common in Google or something. We must investigate before making this big change. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me for omitting to sign my post above. Re Talat vs. Talaat: Turkish Talat (with the caret) seems to indicate that the form with double "a" should be the primary choice (cf. the Armenian form "Taleat"). It appears that the form "Talat" is a simplification of the Turkish form by eliminating the caret (^).Armen Ohanian (talk) 04:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Ohanian. I think we need look no further; it should be "Talaat". Diranakir (talk) 16:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, per WP:COMMONNAME. Talaat Pasha appears to be much more common than Talat. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:52, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Then the question is how to do make the changes. Is there a "Change All" option, or must it be done instance by instance? Diranakir (talk) 03:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Leave that to me. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:52, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. Diranakir (talk) 04:45, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

World War I[edit]

Just a heads up, I can't change this myself, because the article is protected, in the first paragraph (3rd line) the article states ″historic homeland in the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey during and after World War.″, Obviously it should say World War I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.24.102.221 (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the heads up! Diranakir (talk) 04:50, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Erzerum or Erzurum?[edit]

To Ohanian, Dolet, or others: Both spellings (as above) occur in the main article. This should be resolved in favor of one or the other. Also," Erzurum" is used in the title of the WP article on the city. My assumption has always been that it is "Erzerum". Your thoughts and proposals. Thanks. Diranakir (talk) 01:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC) "Erzurum" is the Turkish name of the city. "Erzerum" appears to be the Westernized transliteration used until the 1920s, which corresponds to the Armenian spelling Էրզրում. Armen Ohanian (talk) 02:54, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Erzurum. Per WP:COMMONNAME. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:54, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
To Ohanian & Dolet: Thanks for your input. I have made the changes. Diranakir (talk) 21:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Armenian Genocide/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 06:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct. Needs copy edit, suggest GOCE.
1b. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. Referencing not IAW MOS.
2b. it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines. Not all paragraphs and even some sections are uncited.
2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6a. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content.
6b. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
7. Overall assessment. quick failed, does not meet criterion 1a, 2a and 2b. Remaining criterion not fully assessed. Needs a thorough copy edit (suggest approach be made to the Guild of Copy Editors), citation system needs to reflect MOS, and in an article on this topic, all paragraphs must have at least one citation to a reliable source.
After 20-odd pages of archived talk and tens of thousands of edits here is the result - an article that is in such a dismally bad state that it fails so badly on the initial GA criteria hurdles that is not even worth assessing it on the other criteria attributes. Why is the article so bad? Is there is a serious problem with the editing skills or the goals of the editors who have worked on this article? Why were some editors deluded enough to think it was in a condition to get GA status when it was so obviously not? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Translation of Halil Pasha quote in section "5.7 Ottoman Empire and Turkey"[edit]

I think this translation could be a lot better. The original Turkish text just flows when I read it; the English seems somewhat whacky in comparison and harder to understand. (I assure you I'm fluent in English.) Someone who's fluent enough in (19th-20th century) Turkish to catch all nuance in the original text, and also skilled in English prose so they can write a suitable English equivalent, might want to take a jab at it. On the meanwhile please correct the spelling mistake "piece" to "peace", and change the word "luxury" to "comfort" or "tranquility" or so.

For the record, here's my attempt at a mostly literal translation without entirely butchering English (but it might still read awkwardly): "The Armenian nation who I tried to eliminate to its last member for trying to erase my homeland from history [as prisoners of (OR) by surrendering to] the enemy in the most horrible and painful days of my homeland; the Armenian nation who I today want to bring to peace and comfort since they take shelter in the generosity of the Turkish nation... If you remain loyal to the Turkish homeland I will do every good deed I can. If you once again attempt to betray the Turkish and the Turkish homeland by getting involved with certain senseless Komitadjis I will order my armies who surround your whole country and leave not a single Armenian to breathe on this earth; pull yourself together."

Some notes:

I end the first (compound) sentence in ellipsis (instead of a period) because it indeed lacks a verb; he's rather calling out to the Armenian nation with those two compounded sentences which I separated with a semicolon (as opposed to a comma in the original).

The part in brackets is very ambiguous to me in the original text and could be translated to either phrase in English (the phrase "esir olarak" can mean both "as a prisoner" and "by surrendering"). It also has the second ambiguity (not resolved in English by choosing either phrase) that is who the subject of the clause is (is it the Armenians who surrender or are imprisoned, or the Ottomans?), so there is four possible interpretations in total: have Armenians once intentionally surrendered themselves to enemy forces to disadvantage the Ottomans? Were they already imprisoned but then helped the enemy forces? Or have they just generally contributed to the surrender of the Ottomans, which led to a risk of them getting erased from history? Or did they do something while the Ottomans were already (figuratively) imprisoned by enemy nations and under threat of this "erasure from history"? Someone who knows the context of the text might be able to tell.

In "betray the Turkish" I use the word "Turkish" as an implicit plural/group/nation/culture; this is most close to the original text which just uses "Türk" without pluralization; it could have used the plural "Türkler" if it wanted to speak of "the Turks". (I also considered just writing "betray the Turk", but I think "betray the Turkish" is more fitting.)

In the last sentence, the word "country" is not to be misinterpreted to mean that they have a government. I don't know if there's a better alternative to the word "country" here; I considered "land" but that doesn't carry the implication of a nation being bound to that land, whereas the original uses the word "memleket" which is a bit more like "homeland". I chose not to use "homeland" because that was previously used as a translation for "vatan". When I think about it, perhaps the only difference between "vatan" and "memleket" is that the former sounds a bit more glorified, though.

And lastly, the last part is better translated as "pull yourself together" and not "make up your mind" because the Turkish phrase that is originally used literally translates to "put your mind back in your head" and does not imply there being any decision to make; not even sarcastically.

Translation is frickin' difficult! 2003:51:4A04:D063:213:E8FF:FEED:36FB (talk) 21:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Your work on the translation is appreciated - but I think it signifies that this quotation cannot be used in Wikipedia unless there is an acceptable English translation of it that appears in a published source. Your version cannot be used because it is original research. Nor can the current version because it too appears to be original research - and it is also, as you have revealed, inaccurate. For these reasons I propose that the passage is deleted from this article and also from the Halil Pasha article. Are there objections? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Disagree with removing the Halil Pasha quote entirely. The translation is based off of a reliable source. We cannot render the translations for direct quotes by Wikipedia users as reliable. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
You claim "We cannot render the translations for direct quotes by Wikipedia users as reliable". Exactly! So you are actually supporting my deletion suggestion? The quote in the article is a translation by a Wikipedia user - it has no reference. Translations by Wikipedia users are OR, even setting aside the problem that translations by Wikipedia users cannot be guaranteed to be accurate, especially if they are translated from a long-dead language filled with obscure phrases and concepts like Ottoman Turkish. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The quote doesn't even have a date against it! When was it written? How can it claim to be be "contemporaneous" without this important information. I think that it is weak content like this that needs to be removed if this article is to even get close to GA status. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The original quote isn't really in "Ottoman Turkish", or if it is then Ottoman Turkish is closer to today's Turkish than I was aware. As a Turk born in the 90s I can understand the text just fine. I had to look up three words used in it: one ("ferd") I'd probably have known if I read a little more Turkish literature or even just if I didn't leave Turkey at age 16, the second I'm guessing is relatively obscure in modern Turkish ("âlicenaplık"), and the third is the term "komitacı" (komitadji) which seems to be a history-related term which I'd probably have known if I studied recent Turkish history better. 2003:51:4A35:4160:213:E8FF:FEED:36FB (talk) 20:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I wonder, have you seen the Talat Paşa'nın Evrak-ı Metrukesi book by Murat Bardakçı. Has it got Ottoman Turkish original text, or has it been modernised. The article on the book is here Talat Pasha's Abandoned Documents but that location/name might change. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

This article isn't set on being a GA anyways. I don't mind using this translation [19]:

"The Armenian folk that I tried to kill to the last person, since they tried to enslave a nation to the enemy in the most terrible and painful days of my country, the Armenian folk that I am offering peace, comfort since they take refuge of the Turkish nation’s high mind… If you stick together with the Turkish homeland, I would do whatever I can for your country but if you obey some group of unconscientious Armenians who would betray the Turks and their homeland again, I will give an order to the armies that are surrounding your country to not leave any Armenians still breathing on the earth. Be more reasonable."

Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, what I'm just going to do is delete it. If it is then put back I will raise the issue on one of the advice boards and I hope eventually get rid of it for good. This is because Halil Pasha's Memoirs have not been translated into English, there seems to be no published English translation (in a source we can use) of the original Ottoman Turkish quote, and we cannot have amateurish or ambiguous private translations in an article. Whatever the actual merit of the untranslated original (I think the original adds no value to the article, you think differently) we cannot ignore Wikipedia's rules on OR or verifiable sources or appropriate sources (I hope you were not seriously claiming as an appropriate source a propaganda website that I am certain has long been agreed as unusable on Wikipedia). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

There are some questionable things in here.[edit]

Things like: "It is unlawful to designate the Armenian assets as "abandoned goods" for the Armenians, the proprietors, did not abandon their properties voluntarily; they were forcibly, compulsorily removed from their domiciles and exiled. Now the government through its efforts is selling their goods ... If we are a constitutional regime functioning in accordance with constitutional law we can't do this. This is atrocious. Grab my arm, eject me from my village, then sell my goods and properties, such a thing can never be permissible. Neither the conscience of the Ottomans nor the law can allow it."

Don't seem NPOV and weren't in quotations in the article. I'm considering deleting this if nobody has any objections. There are also quite a few things I find questionable that I would like to change or delete all together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.121.121 (talk) 09:43, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

No, you can't deleted reliably sourced material outright. This appears to be a simple case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:56, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
"a few things I find questionable that I would like to change or delete all together" - you and me also! Get rid of 50% of this article, maybe more ...and much of the remaining 50% is so badly written it is barely salvageable. But the task to mend it is enormous, and it seems pointless just to tinker with it. I could add the full source for the quote (page number, etc.), but why, when I think it should be gone from the article. If only it were possible to just delete everything and start from scratch. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Etiennedolet shhhh grown people are talking. I agree Tiptoethrutheminefield, this whole article seems pretty poorly written and breaks NPOV quite often, I think it would be best to re-write it.

Christian Genocide[edit]

Has anyone here considered -- or, agree with -- merging the Armenian Genocide page along with the Greek and Assyrian genocide pages. After all, they were not three separate events, but rather, three different national histories. Renowned genocide scholar Hannibal Travis and even the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) refer to the events as a genocide of the Ottoman Empire's Christian population - Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian.

No, because nothing you just said is backed up by any reliable sources, they were separate events and only the Armenian Genocide has any real evidence of actually happening. But either way, there was no campaign against killing Christians during this time, Christians may have died, but not for their religion.
Please remember to sign your posts! Everything can be said to be connected to everything else in some way, but encyclopedias divide things up into smaller and smaller units to stop things becoming unworkable! Yes, there is a connection between the Armenian Genocide and the Greek and Assyrian genocides, and yes a major part of that connection is that they were Christian and were killed because of that. But these are separate subjects as far as specialist articles go, and the main specialist articles have numerous fork or ancillary articles as well - so what you suggest cannot happen. Instead, the mutual connections could be revealed through content, through wikilinks, and through the topics sections at the bottom of articles. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:38, 29 August 2014 (UTC)