|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Arvanites article.|
|Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8|
|Arvanites was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.|
|Current status: Delisted good article|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Please supply full citations when adding information, and consider tagging or removing unciteable information.|
|Threads older than 90 days may be archived by.|
- 1 "a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians"
- 2 I debate that the refered famous persons from Greece were Arvanites
- 3 The meaning of "Arvanites" in old sources.
- 4 It was one Million Arvanites. not 200.00
- 5 origin
- 6 Map on "Albanian migration" is fake and self made
"a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians"
This sentence is fairly exaggerated and mostly promoted by nationalist Greeks who consider the Arvanites as one of the pillars of Greek independence. The sentence is created out of nationalist Greeks prejudice towards ethnic Albanians and partly because nationalist Greeks consider people of orthodox faith as Greeks. The sentence that assimilated Arvanites consider themselves Greeks doesn't change the fact that the Arvanites as a population group have an ethnic origin and mother tongue completely different from the Greeks. Complete assimilation often means extinction. I ask for a objective source which doesn't stem from Wikipedia or Greek circles to further confirm this theory that the Arvanites object being called Albanians. It's strange for a non-extinct people who speak a own language to feel dislike of their origin that they still keep alive. Silence on this question will be answered with deletion of the sentence. --Albanau (talk) 16:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's sourced to GHM, in case you hadn't already noticed. Athenean (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- The ref is in the article for crying out loud, in the "Minority" section. Just click on the ref and and you will get the pdf. Your insistence on "no copy from Wikipedia!" (not even sure what that means) is bizarre, but it seems that no one will be able to help you with that. Athenean (talk) 17:43, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- With no copy from Wikipedia I mean't no writing statement taken from texts in the Wikipedia but from the original source (with other words GHM). Are the authors of the writing statement Greeks since GHM is a Greek section of the organization? We should be careful citing Greek sources on this matter since Greeks do not recognize the cultural rights of the Arvanites. --Albanau (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I would give you an example although it is mostly anecdotal evidence. I have personally spoken with a family of Arvanites and they told me themselves how they disliked being labeled as Albanians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
I debate that the refered famous persons from Greece were Arvanites
There is not solid evidence for this, at least for most of them. Please give me their family trees. Arvanites are actually Albanian language speaking people that lived in Greece. They seem to have Albanian origin, as many Albanians descended in Greece during the occupation of Greece from Turkey688dim (talk) 10:35, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
The meaning of "Arvanites" in old sources.
It seems that the article has been locked at an "Albanian" POV. Since much weight is given to early sources, like foreign travellers, it should be added that in that time "Albanian" did not necessarily mean ethnic Albanian. See Arnauts.
- Trikoupis Spyridon, History of the Greek Revolution, 2nd edition, Londond, 1860 volume A', page 24 (in Greek):
"Arvanites were called in the two hegemonies (Moldavia, Vlachia, early 19th c.) the mixed Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, connected by the same dogma and living by mercenarism".
"In the eithy odd years during which Naples employed light infantry from the Balkans, the troops of the regiment and its successors were known popularly under the three names in addition to the aforementioned camociotti: the seemingly national names of Greci, Macedoni and Albanesi. These, names did not, however, have their later ethnic conotations but were instead stylized terms that described the soldiers' general origins or mode of fighting..."
- Arnaut at the Free Dictionary
- Gordon Thomas, History of the Greek revolution, 1844, London & Edinburgh, 2nd edition, volume 1, page 95.
"Included under the generic name of Arnauts, it was recruited from Roumeliote Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Servians, who acted as body-guards to the princes, the great functionaries, and even the simple Boyards."
It was one Million Arvanites. not 200.00
By an very older book have write that was in the year 1810 over one million Arvanites in greece. Why is that not write in this article ? This is a very big reliable soruces.
http://books.google.de/books?id=lvNUUPMlCfQC&pg=PA2316&dq=Arvaniten+eine+million&hl=de&sa=X&ei=6XTwUIHmBMbIswahtYCABA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Arvaniten%20eine%20million&f=false--Albanianp (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- The source says there were an estimated one million Albanians all in all, not Arvanites in Greece. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
when an albanian comes and lives in a greek village, marries a greek woman,has kids, his kids are half albanian half greek, then his kids marry greeks, so their children are 1/4 albanians 3/4 greeks so in 3 and 4 generations they're no longer albanians, they are greeks because the greek dna wins the albanian dna in terms of quantity. so when a population of albanians come and live in greece after a thousand years they are greeks,not albanians. same goes for slavs and other minorities as for the greek origin. so there's the answer for arvanites, of course they are greeks, we greeks tend to identify someone by his homeplace for example "mavrovouniwtis"(montenegrin) but it doensn't mean that he is montenegrin... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 08:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
What we have to realize before start talking about the origin etc. is that the older "states" (or empires like the byzantine), did not base their structure on one ethnic group. Of course, in many cases there was a dominant ethnic group (byzantine empire - Greeks, Ottoman empire - Ottoman turks etc). Moreover, (even in the ancient times), different population were moving around in the greater region and they were having interactions with other populations. (E.g. In some cases Illyrians with Greeks, Greeks with Thracians, One Greek tribe with another). Based on that we can easily see that in some regions the population was mixed (or at least had several infuelnces). So, lets take the arvanites as an example. These people, had influences from Greek people living at south albania, moreover due to different reasons theses people moved to Greek regions (invited or not). So imagine, that you have an albanian tribe that already has some greek influence, comming to greece for centuries. In addition they change religion, use/learn the Greek language(also modify/extent their own) and they also marry and have children with Greeks. So, how is it possible to claim that ALL this people are for instance "albanian". And especially during the last century their community became widely open (so you cannot claim that it is a closed group with minor influences). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 12:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Map on "Albanian migration" is fake and self made
The map which pretends that Albanians moved south from a region which today corresponds with Northern Albania, is a fake one, built on nationalistic agenda from the person who prepared it. In this map, the author claims that Albanians moved in the years 1300-1360, however, all historical evidence shows that the areas of Durrës, Berat, Vlora, today's southern Albania, the western part of today's northern Greece, were inhabited by Albanians since a long time. Therefore, it is fake to assume that they migrated from Northern Albania, to today's Southern Albania. Wikipedia is not a place to advance Megali Ideas. Here is a source, among hundreds, which contradicts the map of the author. (Edvin (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2013 (UTC))
The specific source is 100% in accordance with the map. For example in p. 14-16, it describes that they entered for the first time modern s. Albania in ca. 1330.Alexikoua (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2013 (UTC)