Talk:Ashkenazi Jews

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Judaism (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Jewish history (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Ethnic groups (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Israel (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Germany (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

This article has an assessment summary page.
News This article has been mentioned by a media organisation:

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2014[edit]

he majority of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from prehistoric European women, according to study published today (October 8) in Nature Communications. While the Jewish religion began in the Near East, and the Ashkenazi Jews were believed to have origins in the early indigenous tribes of this region, new evidence from mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on exclusively from mother to child, suggests that female ancestors of most modern Ashkenazi Jews converted to Judaism in the north Mediterranean around 2,000 years ago and later in west and central Europe.

The new findings contradict previous assertions that Ashkenazi mitochondrial lineages originated in the Near East, or from mass conversions to Judaism in the Khazar kingdom, an empire in the north Caucasus region between Europe and Asia lasting from the 7th century to the 11th century whose leaders adopted Judaism. “We found that most of the maternal lineages don’t trace to the north Caucasus, which would be a proxy for the Khazarians, or to the Near East, but most of them emanate from Europe,” said coauthor Martin Richards, an archaeogeneticist at the University of Huddersfield in the U.K.

Richards and colleagues’ story “seems reasonable,” said Harry Ostrer, a human geneticist at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University in New York City who was not involved in the study. “It certainly fits with what we understand about Jewish history.”

The Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of Jews today and most recently have ancestry in central or Eastern Europe. Previous work has demonstrated that just four mitochondrial types, pass down from four mothers, account for 40 percent of variation in Ashkenazi Jews’ mitochondrial DNA, and some researchers have published evidence of Near Eastern origins for these Ashkenazi mitochondrial types.

To further investigate the matrilineal lines of the Ashkenazi Jews, Richards and colleagues looked at mitochondrial genome sequences in living Jews and non-Jews from the Near East, Europe, and the Caucasus. Based on the results, the team concluded that, in contrast to the evidence for many Ashkenazi males, whose Y chromosomal DNA suggests a likely origin in the Near East, the female lineage of Ashkenazi Jews have substantial ancestry in Europe. Specifically, the researchers found that the four main Ashkenazi founder mitochondrial types were nested within European mitochondrial lineages, not Near Eastern ones, and an analysis of more minor haplogroups indicated that an additional 40 percent of mitochondrial variation found in Ashkenazi Jews’ mitochondrial DNA was likely of European origin. The remaining variants appeared to be from the Near East or are of uncertain origin, and there was no evidence for Ashkenazi Jewish origins in the Khazar kingdom, according to the authors.

Historical evidence indicates that Jewish communities began to spread into Europe during classical antiquity and migrated north during the first millennium CE, arriving in the Rhineland by the 12th century. Local European women could have begun to join the Jewish population around 2,000 years ago or earlier, Richards and colleagues suggest, and the Ashkenazis may have continued to recruit additional women as they headed north.

But some scientists question these conclusions. “While it is clear that Ashkenazi maternal ancestry includes both Levantine [Near Eastern] and European origins—the assignment of several of the major Ashkenazi lineages to pre-historic European origin in the current study is incorrect in our view,” physician-geneticists Doron Behar and Karl Skorecki of the Rambam Healthcare Campus in Israel, whose previous work indicated a Near Eastern origins to many Ashkenazi mitochondrial types, wrote in an e-mail to The Scientist. They argue that the mitochondrial DNA data used in the new study did not represent the full spectrum of mitochondrial diversity.

Eran Elhaik, a research associate studying genetics at the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health, is split. He agreed with the study authors that the study rules out a Near Eastern origin for many mitochondrial lineages of the Ashkenazis but disagreed that it rules out a Khazarian contribution. “Jews and non-Jews residing in the regions of Khazaria are underrepresented, which biases the results toward Europe as we have seen in many other studies,” he said in an e-mail to The Scientist. Elhaik recently concluded from autosomal DNA that European Jews did, in fact, have a Khazarian background.

David Goldstein, a geneticist and director of the Center for Human Genome Variation at the Duke University School of Medicine, said that the questions of whether there was a Khazar contribution to the Ashkenazi Jews’ lineage, or exactly what percentage of mitochondrial variants emanate from Europe, cannot be answered with certainty using present genetic and geographical data. Even if a set of variants are present in a specific region today, that doesn’t mean that the region always had that set of variants. Some variants could have been lost due to drift, or perhaps migration altered the balance of variants present in the population.

“These analyses really do not have any formal statistical inference about evolutionary history in them,” Goldstein wrote in an e-mail to The Scientist. “They are based on direct interpretations of where one finds different [mitochondrial DNA] types today. And so the analyses are largely impressionistic.”

Nevertheless, Goldstein noted that the new study “does offer better resolution of the [mitochondrial DNA] than earlier ones, and so the suggested interpretation could well be right.”

[1]. FightRacism (talk) 21:02, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 06:07, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
References
  1. ^ M.D. Costa et al., “A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages,” Nature Communications, doi:10.1038/ncomms3543, 2013

Wikify[edit]

You may wish to link this article's 7.1.2 (Y lineage) to the Main Article which has many more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Ashkenazi_Jews — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.52.92 (talk) 20:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2014[edit]

The last sentence of the INTRO section needs to be clarified and the citations better formatted.

The old ending of the last paragraph says:

The results of the study show that today's appr. 10 million Ashkenazi Jews descend from a population of only 350 individuals who lived about 600-800 years ago. That population derived from both Europe and the Middle East.<ref>"Schuster, Ruth 'Ashkenazi Jews Descend From 350 People, Scientists Say:Geneticists Believe Community Is Only 600-800 Years Old' (Sept 9, 2014) The Jewish Daily Forward"http://forward.com/articles/205371/ashkenazi-jews-descend-from--people-scientists/</ref><ref>http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140909/ncomms5835/full/ncomms5835.html</ref>

Please replace the above with this new version:

The results of the study show that today's appr. 10 million Ashkenazi Jews descend from a population of only 350 individuals who lived about 600-800 years ago.<ref>"Schuster, Ruth ''[http://forward.com/articles/205371/ashkenazi-jews-descend-from--people-scientists/ Ashkenazi Jews Descend From 350 People, Scientists Say:Geneticists Believe Community Is Only 600-800 Years Old]'' (Sept 9, 2014) The Jewish Daily Forward</ref> That population is derived from "an even mix of European and Middle Eastern ancestral populations".<ref>Journal: Carmi, S. et al. (9 September 2014). [http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140909/ncomms5835/full/ncomms5835.html "Sequencing an Ashkenazi reference panel supports population-targeted personal genomics and illuminates Jewish and European origins"]. Nature Communications 5. doi:10.1038/ncomms5835. Retrieved 20 December 2014.</ref>

Section 0 edit link. Thank you. 172.164.6.38 (talk) 01:27, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Done Khazar (talk) 03:44, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done Khazar did this seems to have done this already. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 06:02, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Just a small point, but it is important for a lead statement. We have a citation that, 'that population is derived from "an even mix of European and Middle Eastern ancestral populations". This is a viewpoint of one of the latest scientific papers, not an established fact. Esp. in the lead, one should await for peer-reviewed and area consensus. As all editors know, the area of genetics, esp. here, is characterized by constant revision, and upending of prior results. There is scarcely a paper whose conclusions are not refined or challenged (In fact the whole historically deductive methodology is unstable so far, but one has good reason to expect this will be thrashed out within a few years). So I think the statement requires attribution.Nishidani (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Nishdani I think this is not a small point, but a major one. In view of the large claims attributed to one study, and the fact that other studies have reached other conclusions, I strongly feel this study (or any other one study) should not be mentioned in the lede at all, but at most in the article itself. I removed it therefore from the lede. Debresser (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Debress. I don't have any specific objection to a mention of genetics in the lead, which per WP:LEDE summarizes, and the text does have material on this. I'd guess that to do this, we'd have to thrash out some sentence that sums up a variety of results in the most recent research. That would, however, be quite difficult. My suggestion, putting aside my personal perplexities (admittedly I think in historical terms with an eye to the philosophy of science) at the methodology* of this and many other by way of compromise, was to suggest attribution. That was a minimum. However, I commend your bold revert. These things definitely require some discussion, and this is particularly true of leads to an article where edit-warring has been destructive. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I baulk at 128 self-identified (New York?) Ashkenazi as the sample. I've heard highly regarded geneticists say these kind of things should have blind sampling, otherwise the results are preselected by the method itself. But this shouldn't affect one's judgement on wiki. Nishidani (talk) 21:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Okay. It was late. I didn't reread the lead, just the diffs. We already mentioned the genetics in the lead. Sorry for being dopey. The lead text strikes me as fine as it stands, how Debresser left it.Nishidani (talk) 08:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)