Talk:Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani

Merge

agree. Rlevse 11:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

redirected article text, needs folded in

THE WINDROSE SCOUT GROUP. The scout group “Monza 1” is a part of the AGESCI, the Italian catholic Scout association (www.agesci.org). The group is divided in five units: the second one, where there are boys and girls from 12 to 16 years old is named “Windrose” and it’s composed by 6 squadrons; each of them has the name of a wind: “Meltemi”, “Khamsi” and “Vandevales”, the three female squadrons, “Reshabar”, “Levante” and “Harmattan”, the three male squadrons. “Windrose” was born at beginning of September 2003 since the boss community decided to unit the two groups there were originally. Boys and Girls of the group meet three week-ends a month, and in one of these meeting they spend the night away. After have walked for a long time, with heavy rucksacks on their shoulders, usually the bosses prepare some games with times in order to bring up boys scout. For lunch they cook on a fire. Sometimes is a bit difficult because when it rains the wood is wet. Prayer is very important: every sunday the group go to mass and they also spend a part of the day, praying. A typical scout game is “roverino”: it consists of a big ring made of rope; the rules of this game are very similar to the hand - ball rules. During Christmas holidays they have a winter camp that goes on for three or four days. During summer holidays they had another camp, ten days long, where every squadrons have to build a banked tent. In each camp there is a hike, an activity where every squadron leaves the campsite to go to unknown places. They also do cooking races: they have to cook some elaborated dishes and to give them to the bosses. They decide which is the best dish and they award a price (as hammocks or gas lamps) to the squadron who has cooked it. During the camps, they have a tournament: it is prepared by two or more member of the group, that have to become specialists in preparing games. In these tournaments they usually play volleyball, baseball or soccer.

Equipment

It’s compulsory to wear a special uniform, composed of light-blue shirt (over where there are some badges); an extra-large, blue pull over made of wool, a blue, red and white (the colors of our group) neckerchief and a pair of shorts.

The Scout Law

Each scout have also to respect several rules, as love and respect nature and be friends of everyone There is also a scout motto: estote parati, that it means “be ready”. Before being part officially of the group, every member has to do a promise that explains the role of a scout.

Name of AGESCI

The correct name of AGESCI is not Associazione Guide e Scout Cattolici Italiani but Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani. Since there is already a redirect for the other form, I think I can't rename the page myself. Can anyone help me? Maybe we need an admin? See the web site for confirmation on the name --Lou Crazy 23:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I did the move; you can overwrite redirects if they don't have a longer history. --jergen 18:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I think we should use the English name on the English wiki. --evrik 21:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Is there an official translation or is there a commonly used English version? Pls see Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards#Article names. --jergen 07:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Isn't it Association of Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts? --evrik 14:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• This is only a literal and inofficial translation; the association doen't translate its name. --jergen 21:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know about that ... I remember seeing a flyer of theirs once in English ... and the name was translated ... I just don't have it anymore. --evrik 21:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy according to http://www.scout.org/en/around_the_world/countries/national_scout_organisations

--evrik 22:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• I think the English translation is Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts Association, but I'm sure this isn't recognized as such by its members, so should be avoided. Just use the official name as they call themselves. We wouldn't like to rename Evrik into Son of Anders from Brieuse would we? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC).
• I don't care what you call me, just don't call me late for dinner. --evrik 03:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• AGESCI means literally Association of Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts. But I'm not really happy with this. --jergen 16:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not fluent in Italian, but the distinction is important: I think it is Italian Catholic Association of Guides and Scouts. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC).
    • Yes, it's an important distinction. Italiani is conneted to Guide e Scouts (plur. masc.); if it was connected to Associazione it would be Italiana (sing. fem.). The same with Cattolici. --jergen 21:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, but the gender of the words isn't important in English. I think we're talking about word order here. --evrik 16:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• When translating the gender of words is really important; we are not speaking of word order but of a correct translation, so the gender of words is important. To me there is a difference between Italian Catholic Association of Guides and Scouts and Association of Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts: the members are Italian and Catholic and not the association. --jergen 16:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• • That's not the way it reads to me in English. Teh difference (to me) in English) is minute. --evrik 16:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• If someone here is an admin, and wants to revert it back to the last page where Italian was the title, be my guest. I'm okay with it going back pending the results of the discussion. --evrik 03:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I always translate it as "Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts Association", and I recommend to do the same in a glossary for Agesci's international department. There is no official translation, though. I think the Italian name is the most correct name for the article, with redirects from all other forms. --Lou Crazy 04:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Google search on English name

• [1] Looks like this English name is used quite often though, just be doing a Google search. Note that it does not have to be "official" to be common English usage, and it is preferable we go with English on English Wikipedia. Icsunonove (talk) 06:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

If you insert the term in quotation marks and exclude wikipedia from the search term, you will get (right now) 16 real results [2] for "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy". "Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts Association" gets 12 real results [3]. An English language only search on "Associazione Guide E Scouts Cattolici Italiani" gets 82 real results [4]. "Associazione Guide E Scouts Cattolici Italiani" seems to be the common English name.

Please learn to use Google in the correct way. --jergen (talk) 06:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

I propose to move this articel to Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani.

Reasons:

• A Google survey on the different names used and proposed on this talk page had the following results:

  "Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani": 82 results (English only) [5]

  "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy": 16 results (all languages) [6]

  "Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts Association": 12 results (all languages) [7]

• The Italian name "Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani" has several possible translations. Most of the 82 English results mentioned above give a translation, but they differ including "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy", "Scouts and Guides Italian Catholic Association", "Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts Association", "Association of Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts", "Catholic Scout and Guide Association of Italy" or "Association of the Catholic Guides And Scouts". There seems to be no widely accepted translation.
• The organization's website dos not have an English section [8] so an official translation was not obtainable. User: Lou Crazy who works with the organization wrote that there is no official translation [9]. --jergen (talk) 07:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion:

• comment: Here is our guideline: Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Article names. If you can figure it out, please let me know. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 08:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

  answer:

  Following the procedure of Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Article names#Main points:

  1. There is no official English name [10]
  2. Consensus was reached that there is no single and clear translation (see #Name of AGESCI as well as the examples given by me).
  3. The "Scouting in XXX" proposal does not work since Italy has a number of major associations (see Scouting in Italy); following this proposal would mean to merge all associations in a single article.
  4. Thus we should use the official non-english name. --jergen (talk) 18:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. Ed is quite right to point us to the guideline, which I helped to write some time ago. I think it all hinges on point 2 of those guidelines:-

"If no official English name becomes available, we seek consensus on whether there is one clear translation to English of the organisation's name and use that. If there are several translations that differ only trivially, we seek consensus on whether one of them can be used. By trivial, we mean different prepositions (e.g. "in" or "of") or word order ("Scout Association" or "Association of Scouts")"

Are the different translations discussed just trivially different? I think they are quite close to being trivial, but not quite. Therefore I come to support the name change, unless we can get clear evidence that the association does use an English translation of its name, and we do not appear to have that. Please note my involvement in mediation about the dispute at Talk:Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft#Mediation, where this issue is clearly part of the point of disagreement. --Bduke (talk) 11:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Survey:

• Support --jergen (talk) 07:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Closing...I have to agree with Jergen and Bduke on this one, so I'm moving the article. And per our own guidelines, leaving redirects from the English version of the name in place. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)