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Can anyone tell me why this page was redirected to Asharite? Sunni Islam and other websites make it clear that they aren't the same thing. There was a merge notice, but I didn't find any Athari material at Asharite. Art LaPella 01:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you. Art LaPella 03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Why is there an external link leading to a book called "The 'Ash'aris: In the Scales of Ahl us-Sunnah" What has that to do with this article? I've removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Deletion[edit]

I suggest that this page be deleted. There are no references. Any search for references amount to no credible sources. I believe that this is sufficient reason for an encyclopaedia to delete this page.

From a scholarly perspective, from my limited understanding it seems the very concept of a school of theology being premised upon a belief that avoids theology is not a basis for a designation of it being a school of thought. It is a view of minimizing or sidelining the importance of theology but not a school of theology. It would be like calling atheism a religion. I'd be very interested to hear from others on this topic be it from a scholarly or editorial perspective. --Ddragovic (talk) 09:32, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Sources can be found, though I think it can be agreed that this current new form is totally unacceptable. It is more or less ripped off entirely from the website of an individual named Suhaib Webb, a members of the Sufi and Ash'ari minority movements, both of which are opponents of the Athari school. All the sources currently provided are extremely biased in their presentation, and one of them is a blog (unacceptable in and of itself) whose sole purpose is to promote the Ash'ari point of view while calling it Athari, then claiming that the modern-day Atharis are not really Atharis. It's a bit ridiculous if one takes the time to actually read the sources. MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I've tried to clean it up a bit and moved some more objective info from the Sunni Islam page. More will be forthcoming - even the current sources left, such as Sunni Path for example, are web sites which openly pronounce the Athari school of theology as heretical. While it's sufficient for a section on criticism, an actual Athari website such as Al-Athariyyah dot com would probably have more general information, as well as papers from non-Muslim academics. MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:53, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I've been researching Islamic theology for a limited time now, though at a doctoral level, and I am yet to come across any reference of a third school named "Athari". Again, I understand the concept of a 'non-school' but as an encyclopaedia I think that what is required here is for a reference to what is widely understood to be the case not a few blogger's ideas for a new school. Even with the changes I still don't see any credible references. Without references it shouldn't be here. I still stand by my suggestion to delete it altogether and simply note on another page that there is a 'non-school' position which some have referred to as Athari.--Ddragovic (talk) 11:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm afraid you're mistaken, I study Islamic theology and have read a great depth of material in Aqidah and the Atharia have always been regarded as the third Sunni school of thought, as a position contrasting to the people of Philosophy. In fact this is the defining point on which the Ahlul Hadeeth of Medina headed by Imam Malik ibn Anas were opposed to the Ahlul Ra'i of Baghdad that had deeply ventured into the works of Aristotle which was rebuked heavily by later authorities of Sunni theology such as Imam Shafi'i and most definitely Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal who had suffered torture for his affirmation of the Athari theological school in resistance to the dominating Mu'tazila school at the time he lived. Sakimonk (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Sakimonk, I appreciate this academic overview but I still go back to my two basic points. Firstly, the credibility of references and secondly whether a non-school is a school. I agree with you on the basis of the position of Imam Hanbal and the concept that you summarized but I have not found scholarly references that refer to it as a school, but rather references to there being a movement against the very concept of theology as it being unnecessary. But rather than arguing here on academic points I think we need to focus on what is relevant to Wikipedia, namely, are the sources credible and widely held? If I can find, for example, five books which reference there being only two schools will this then suffice to change this page and remove references to it being a school? I have no problems with a definition of what athari is but referring to it as a school is just wrong. --Ddragovic (talk) 16:57, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your concern we can continue the discussion in light of further evidences at a more appropriate time and I do hope others will contribute. Also I have taken it upon myself to restore the page to my previous state prior to the vandalisation by "Ivegoturnumber" (as the user has been known for leaving scathing diatribe all across various apparently "Salafi" orientated articles and seems to have collected a plethora of talk page warnings - the edits horrendously violate WP:NPOV, if the user wishes to raise an issue they should flag the topic on the article talk page for further discussion instead of soapboxing)- following that I included all of your requests for citations and the edit by the other user. Many thanks! Sakimonk (talk) 00:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry Sakimonk but that is a cop out. The whole point of this page is to discuss these issues now, not "at a more appropriate time". Since you obviously are unable to rebut my assertion I will be deleting all references to it as a "school". I suggest that unless you can provide legitimate sources that show that it is a school then there is no place for claiming such and my deletions of the term school should remain. Please note that I have also raised this topic on the talk page for Islamic theology and intend to have that changed too unless someone, anyone, can provide suitable sources suggesting otherwise. --Ddragovic (talk) 16:30, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
It's not a cop out, I'm genuinely very busy and I simply don't have the time to argue semantics. Call it whatever you like, I don't understand what exactly qualifies it as a School or Methodologly, all I know is that in most Islamic institutes scholars are either Ashari, Maturidi or Athari and all respect one another however severely disagree over what merits the correct understanding of theology. If you look at Al Azhar for example the cheif scholars are generaly Ashari however there are large number of Athari scholars who teach especially in the hadeeth department. Similar to how scholars typically are of the Sha'fi school however all other schools of fiqh` are taught from a number of different scholars. For example Hamza Yusuf is a famous Ashari scholar however his teacher Sheikh Bin Bayyah is Athari is aqeedah. It isn't actually a non-school as it has defining principles, for example what is typically mutashabihat (meriting either tafweedh or speculative interpretation) in the Ashari school is actually in the Athari school upon its "dhaahir" and its modality is designated as mutashabihat where tafwidh is applied and speculation is prohibited, if you understand. There are also the principles of taking the dhaahir upon no tashbih (establishing likeness), no takyeef (speculating as to "how" they are manifested in the divine), no ta'teel (negating/denying their apparent meaning) and no ta'weel (giving it secondary/symbolic meaning which is different from the apparent meaning). This methodlogy or School of theology, call it what you like, is widely followed by a large number of scholars and in fact a principle in theology is that naturally laymen are "Athari" as it is in line with the 'fitra', or natural disposition of the human being, and Allah knows best. I honestly don't see the difference between calling it a methodology or school but like I said, in Aqeedah (which is creed or defining principles of Theology in Islam) the Atharia is the third 'way' and always has been seen as that and its generally known as a madh`hab in aqeeadh which translates to "school of thought" if you understand what I mean. Many thanks. Sakimonk (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
I appreciate that you're busy and I won't make further changes until I hear back from you or a reasonable time has passed. As to your question as to what qualifies for a school, as an encyclopaedia the answer is whatever other scholars have determined as such. I understand what you have written but my point all along was not whether you could argue it from first principles but whether other scholars of repute have published the same opinion. In all of my reading I find references to two schools. If you think that there is a third school all that is required to convince me is to reference the claims of it being a school to credible sources as per WP:OR. Then I can add a second line saying that some scholars do not agree. I think that we're the only ones here so no rush and as I said, I won't change any of the work until I hear back. Cheers, --Ddragovic (talk) 22:50, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. As I said I'm very tied up at the moment and I really do hope others will join in who wish to contribute usefully (at the moment all there seems to be is people soapboxing). Tbh the Athari tradition in its codified form would be dating back to the works of Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah who is regarded pretty much by all as one of the cheif authorities - the reason it is downplayed generally in scholastic institutions is the extreme disregard for "kalam" which had gained immense popularity in Sunni places of knowledge throughout later history from the 10th century onwards. If you have a read through this for example (it is an extract from one of the writings of Mufti Taqi Usmani, I believe the Grand Mufti of Pakistan and cheif authourity of the Deoband institution in India I beleive) he mentions the various positions in theology taken by the scholars and of them he mentions the Athari position along with both Ash`ari and Maturidi positions where he sums up stating they are all viable positions. Let me know what you think. Sakimonk (talk) 02:55, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I've added the Athari view on Tawhid and its division into three categories along with Iman. If you have a view of this video you'll see Sheikh Albani rahimahallah explaining Tawhid ( To be honest the chief authority on Athari theology of this era would have been the late Sheikh Ibn Baz rahimahallah who passed away just over a decade ago, he himself along with Sheikh Uthaymeen rahimahallah and Sheikh Albani rahimahallah are effectively the three most highly regarded scholars of Athari theology of this era. The entirety of Saudi Arabia's Islamic institutions teaches solely Athari theology and every single Muslim identified as being "Salafi" is actually in essence Athari as the differential factor is his "Aqeedah" or creed as it is not really a matter of "Fiqh" that causes dispute generally. The "Salafi" theology is literally Athari theology however Athari is the classical term and there have been Atharis for over a thousands years as this is essentially the baseline creed of all Muslims before they delve into speculative theology and engage in philosophical deliberation (which was harshly attacked by the entirely of the scholarly community up until the advent of the Ash`ari popularity surging due to political power after the fall of the Mu`tazila a while after Imam Ahmed rahmahallah had passed away who is the originator and highest figure in the Athari school and is recognised as the founder of the school.) I understand the text is un-sourced however I haven't had the time to search around for suitable references online as this is generally mostly from my own reading in my own time and I have many, many books on the subject which I can't reference individually. :) Sakimonk (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I am doing some further reading on the subject and Insha`Allah expand my knowledge on this subject, I hope you will like the citations - I sourced a number of quite reliable texts - original works in creed and so on and added some further reading. There is also a lecture linked that goes into the details, the speaker is qualified from Dar al Hadeeth in Makkah.Sakimonk (talk) 06:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Dear Sakimonk I went to the link you provided from Deoband and did not find a mention of Athari. Yes, you could argue that a position was established similar to that which you are probably correctly stating is "athari" thought, but again as mentioned above the problem is that there are no credible sources that discuss Athari as a third school of theology. Although its hard to prove the negative I will make this step just to show you what I mean:
1: There is no mention in the Brill Encyclopaedia of Islam Second Edition of Athari
2: By going to the Brill Encyclopaedia entry for Maturidi the following is stated: "Abū Manṣūr Muḥammad b. Muḥammad b. Maḥmūd al-Samarḳandī, Ḥanafī theologian, jurist, and Ḳurʾān commentator, founder of a doctrinal school which later came to be considered one of the two orthodox Sunnī schools of kalām" Note the mention of "two orthodox Sunni schools".
3: I randomly picked three books from my shelf on Islamic theology and had a look at their indexes, none of these books list Athari, having read them sometime ago I am quite sure that they do not discuss them either. These being "Islamic Theology: Traditionalism and Rationalism", "Development of Muslim Theology" and "Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology". But having said that Tim Winter in his introduction to the Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology mentions three schools of theology, Ash'arism, Maturidism and Hanbalism. From your perspective I presume that the term "Atharism" should be used instead of "Hanbalism" but that it is not is problematic.
Historically there are other schools but the main point is that we have a page that needs to define what are the schools of Islamic theology and since no published author seems to suggest that "athari" is one of them and none of your links that you've provided from non-traditional Western scholarly sources do so either I don't think that there is a case to be made to have it listed as a school. So overall I'm still not convinced and I suggest that until it can be shown that others have acknowledged Athari as a school that we either retitle the page to Hanbali theology (I can't comment on the validity of this as I'm not an expert in that field so I can only go by Winter's reference to it as a school) or to acknowledge that it is not a "school" but rather just a methodology. What do you think?--Ddragovic (talk) 14:39, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
It wouldn't be apt to title it Hanblai theology as this is primarily a school in fiqh however it happens that the Hanabila incorperated Aqeedah into their Madh'hab aside from certain scholars such as sheikh Ibnal Jawzi Rahimahullah who was known to have independent views from the mainstream Hanabila - what I mean is that there are many Malikis and Sha'fis and Hanafis that are of this theology. I believe that most theological texts only address schools of philosophy (known as Kalam) being Ash'ari and Maturidi however the Atharia are strictly opposed to kalam - it should be noted that Atharia pre-dates kalam as what is meant by Athari is the original theological doctrine of the first three generations of Muslims (the Salaf) so I guess it would be a non-school in terms of Islamic philosophy however it is certainly a major "school" in Theology / i.e. being the major creed followed by all those who consider themselves to be "salafi" however non-salafi scholars are also "Athari" such as Suhaib Webb the Maliki Athari scholar - it is a bit hard to explain it concisely but I hope you get the jist of what I mean. Sakimonk talk 04:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
basically to sum - ANY work of theology from the Salaf is regarded as defining the Athari theological position, it is set and defined and not open to change, the Atharia believe THIS is the correct position in theology and that Kalam is a deviation in practice from the first Muslims whom are meant to be followed lest the Muslims deviate from the straight path. I really would prefer to address Athari as being a school of Theology as this makes it much easier to quantify and identify, a large number of Muslims study Athari theology - any work by Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah rh, Sheikh Ibn Abdul Wahhab rh who are the two main figures in the Salafi movement are staunchly based in Athari theology which strongly defiens Tawhid as the three categories which Ibn Taymiyyah identified from studying Quranic exegeses and "ATHAR narrations" (meaning a statement from the Salaf) from the first generations of Muslims hence why it is identified as ATHARI since it is concisely ONLY in line with the ATHAR narrations :) Sakimonk talk 04:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
This seems to have become a circular discussion. I'm saying you're doing original research and as such its inappropriate for Wikipedia. You argue your point well but there are insufficient credible resources that support it in the way you have presented it. Every time I point this out you just repeat the same original research. I'll revert this now to other bodies to get involved. --Ddragovic (talk) 12:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
everything is sourced as far as I know, this is not "original research", this is the creed that can be found in all of the works of Ibn Taymiyyah, sourced from Ibn Abdul Wahhab which is followed by the entirety of Saudi Arabia and the entire Salafi movement and effectively ALL modern day Hanbali scholars. The reason you don't find much information on it in British works is because there is a bias towards philosophical theology promoted historically by the Ottoman Empire in the 19th cent where most contact was made between the Biritish intellectuals and Islamic scholars. Currently Tim Winters whom you cite is heavily biased against this theology as he is a staunch advocate of kalam and is Asharite himself, he regards the Athari creed as heretical as do most sufis. I can assure you if you were to pick up any Islamic text originating from Saudi arabia or any work ascribing to the Salafi movement (known as wahhabis generally) you would find the theology is purely Athari, the grand mufti Bin Baz was an expert on this creed and his works are widely spread. The only problem is most of the works are purely in Arabic and Darussalam publishers are the main propagaters of the theology and "salafi dawah" in the English language. Now the problem with renaming is Salafi theology or Salafi creed or Salafi metaphysics is that it in actuality predates "Salafism" or the Salafi movement by a long shot as I said chiefly originating from Ibn Taymiyyah - if you look up ANY work by Ibn Taymiyyah or his students Ibn Qayyim al Jawzia and the chain thereon you would find they regarded all those who were not Athari as innovators to some degree. Look up the works of Uthaymeen, Albani and Bin Baz the three main sources of the Salafi movement, two of them Hanbali scholars and one trained as a Hanafi. As I said look up the source from Suhaib Webb who is a graduate from the prestigious al Azhar islamic university HIS creed is Athari and he cites Ibn Taymiyyah and Hassan al Banna's epistle (the founder of the Muslim brotherhood the CURRENT elected party in Egypt who's official creed in ATHARI, their only difference with the salafi movement is their openness with regards to whom can join their cause) and so on. Please look up every one of my points before you decide to remove cited information. Also one note the quote clearly states " came to be considered one of the two orthodox Sunnī schools of kalām" note it says schools of KALAM, yes this is true the two schools of Kalam in Islamic theology that are most widely spread are Ashari and Maturidi however the Athari creed is not a school of Kalam it is an Aqeedah followed that is against the use of Kalam (speculative philosophy) and purely ascribes to affirming the texts with conditions. Sakimonk talk 17:18, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Added a referenced section detailing the opposition of the creed against the use of kalam, I think we can now agree that "Athari" is in fact simply a creed as opposed to a school of philosophy, i.e. it is the now followed theological view with a basis in the creed of the early Muslims as opposed to the "schools" of kalam Sakimonk talk 06:07, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


Since this article is mentioned on the Sunni Islam panel I have included it in the Sunni Islam and Islamic Philosophy categories.Sakimonk (talk) 06:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Serious need for copyediting[edit]

While the additions to this article over the last few months by a number of editors - especially Sakimonk - have been great, the spelling is horrible. All these double vowels and honorific titles need to be removed. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Tawhid rububiya and uluhiya[edit]

Why is there a discussion of this here on the Athari article? A person who doesn't accept these two things - that only God controls the universe and only God deserves worship - isn't a Muslim to begin with. Traditional writers from the Ash'ari and Maturidi schools didn't disagree with Atharis on this; rather, all three of them disagreed with each other on tawhid of asma and sifat only. I would suggest the removal of these two categories since neither Atharis, Ash'aris or Maturidis are distinguished from one another in those areas. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Primary sources[edit]

I'm concerned about the nature of this article currently. There are a lot of primary sources, which are acceptable to an extent per WP:PRIMARY but they shouldn't form the bulk of the sources for any article. They're also quoted from excessively. Additionally, there is some mixing between the Salafist movement and Atharism here which is wrong; division of tawhid into three categories is specific to the Salafist movement, and not all Atharis are Salafi even though all Salafis are Athari. Given that, and the excessive primary sourcing, I suggest that quite a bit of this article simply be deleted and rewritten from scratch. I'd like to see feedback from others first, though. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This statement as followed I believe is flawed;

"While the Athari Creed and the Salafi Creed are essentially the same, the only difference is in the manner of Tafweed. The Athari consign the specific meaning and nature (Tafweed al-Ma'nawiyya and al-Kayfiyya) to Allah alone. The Salafi affirm the literal meaning of the verse, and only consign the modality (Tafweed al-Kayfiyya) to Allah."

I've only ever heard this from people opposed to the modern day upholders of Athari scholarship as they use this as a means to say "you're following a newly innovated form of theology different from the traditional Atharis of old"
I believe we need help from someone more qualified to advise on this issue in particular and also on the statement by MezzoMezzo; is division of Tawhid into three categories an invention of the modern day salafi movement? user: Expergefactionist are you the actual user of the same handle from IA? because if thats the case I'm sure you can help out insha Allah.
In answer to the question from my own understanding; I think not! This can be traced back to the day of Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah who was himself a well known Athari Hanblai scholar. The fact is, it is the modern day "Salafis" who ascribe to the virtues of traditional Athari theology as they wish to follow that which the Salaf were upon themselves! The "salafis" wouldn't want to innovate a new theological understanding different to those whom they wish to follow wal Allahu alim. whatever the belief of the Salaf was IS in itself in fact the Athari school of theology is it not? Sakimonk talk 22:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Unreliable Sources[edit]

Unfortunately, this article is plagued with quotes from very unreliable POV sources such as:

None of the above have any scholarly credibility and should really be removed. There also seems to be a lot of original research from obscure texts.

There are better sources than the above such as:

  • Jeffry R. Halverson, Theology and Creed in Sunni Islam. ISBN: 0230106587
  • Jonathan A.C. Brown, Hadith: Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World. ISBN: 1780740255

I will look to tackle each of the existing unreliable quotes and where appropriate replace the text with a reliable alternative. RookTaker (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I have removed some of the unreliable sources in the opening paragraph and have added some citations from reliable non-partisan authors. A lot of work still needs to be done however. RookTaker (talk) 10:34, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I have removed dubious quotes from blogs etc... in the "Founders" section and have added text and references to reliable academic titles RookTaker (talk) 17:11, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Most of this article is now referenced from reliable scholarly texts as opposed to the mess that existed before. I will keep an eye on this article to ensure that references to unreliable POV sources are not added in the future. RookTaker (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


The introduction section of this article seems to have little to do with Atharism, but more about Salafism. I think it requires a complete rewrite, particularly as not a single neutral source has been provided.RookTaker (talk) 10:41, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I removed part of the Introduction that deals with 3 types of Tawhid as this has nothing to do with Atharism. A section regarding the Attributes of God still exists. RookTaker (talk) 15:07, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
The subjects covered in the "Introduction" have been broken down into separate sections as follows and is hence redundant:
"Athari Views on the Qur'an"
"Athari views on Kalam and Human Reason"
"Athari Views on the Attributes of God"
"Athari views on Iman (faith)".
The above sections have 14 references to reliable, neutral academic texts.
The current "Introduction" section however contains only 3 references. One to the unreliable POV source Dar us Salam Publications (a Salafi publishing house that considers all non-Salafis to be heretics), one is original research and one is so poorly referenced that the book title has not even been supplied.
As such, I will remove the Introduction section entirely as it is duplicated with better sourced texts already. RookTaker (talk) 17:01, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Copyrighted material?[edit]

Most of the section entitled "Opposition to the use of Kalam" seems to have been copied from the dubious site The wiki Athari article was created in 2012 whereas the relevant page on Daniel Pipes website was created in 2010. It has therefore clearly been copied. In addition to this being a copyright violation, Daniel Pipes is a very controversial figure (please see his wiki page) and I am not sure a poster on his website can be considered impartial. As such, I will remove the relevant quotes and add properly sourced material.RookTaker (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I have made changes to the section above and removed all quotes that exist on I have added sourced material from an academic book. RookTaker (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Attributes of God[edit]

I have added a new section on "Atharis and the Attributes of God". The sources for this have come from:

  • Zulfiqar Ali Shah, Anthropomorphic Depictions of God: The Concept of God in Judaic, Christian, and Islamic Traditions: Representing the Unrepresentable
  • Jeffry R. Halverson, Theology and Creed in Sunni Islam: The Muslim Brotherhood, Ash'arism, and Political Sunnism RookTaker (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Atharism and the Qur'an[edit]

I added a small sourced section on the Athari view of the Qur'an. It suffices for now but can be expanded in the future. RookTaker (talk) 15:09, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Athari Works[edit]

There is a section in this article entitled "Early works in Islamic theology" which has been copied and pasted from the polemic and fanatical Salafi Publications website ( This website clearly has a POV and claims that all non Salafis are heretics and deviants.

It is not clear to me why it was copied in the first place, given that this is not an article about Salafism. Additionally this is clearly a copyright violation.

I will therefore remove the entirety of this section. RookTaker (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


I've removed a sufi author from article. Sufis are not atharis, sufis are those who are totally opposed to atharis as the sufis are the followers of philosophers or people of kalam. Islamic11111 (talk) 21:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

This might be your view, however the source given clearly states that 'Abdallah al-Ansari al-Harawi wrote a treatise entitled Dhamm al-Kalam in refutation of kalam. Please read Jeffry R. Halverson, Theology and Creed in Sunni Islam, 2010: p 37. ISBN 0230106587. He was also a Sufi. Please read Jeffry R. Halverson, Theology and Creed in Sunni Islam, 2010: p 48. ISBN 0230106587. Please don't remove Ansari from the article until we come to a conclusion on this page first. RookTaker (talk) 21:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Removing a source from an article because of what the author believes in isn't valid. Per WP:IRS, the source is judged on its merit, not its author. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)