Talk:Atheism

Atheism definition incorrect

• Moved from User Talk:JimWae#Atheism definition incorrect on 2011-NOV-16 by --JimWae (talk) 21:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is the atheism definition incorrect. Who decided to change the definition of a word??? Colloquial misuse does not define a word. It needs to be fixed and add a caveat which is perfectly acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evictor480 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you looked at the sources given? Did you provide a source for yours? Your definition even suggested that atheism was incorrect--JimWae (talk) 00:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Atheism is the belief that an invisible man isn't looking down on us. They believe this because no one has ever seen this man, there is no proof that this man exists and most of all they are just not stupid. Come on, an invisible man? A talking snake and a virgin birth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShmoreSchnops (talk • contribs) 22:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

We're not here to discuss why it's rational to be an atheist. Talk pages are not a forum. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 07:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Because atheism is not a statement of the validity of the claim "I know god exists" Atheism is the default position one takes when we reject all current evidence of existing god claims. Atheism is not a claim that there are no gods, the only atheists who say that are misusing the term. If you don't get the distinction then get the hell off of wikipedia.

I have checked more sources than you ever will I have been debating atheism with theologens, theists, fellow skeptics and atheist's for 10+ years.

No my definition in no way suggests atheism is incorrect. Atheism is neither correct nor incorrect, it is a position of rejecting a positive claim.

Your confusing agnosticism with atheism. It has to do with the difference between what you believe and what you think you can prove. For any particular god that you can imagine, a “theist” is one who has a belief in that god. An “atheist” is one who does not have a belief in the god. A “gnostic” is one who believes that the god can be proved to exist, and an “agnostic” is one who believes that the god cannot be proved to exist.

Notice that the terms “atheist” and “agnostic”, by these definitions, are not mutually exclusive. You could be an agnostic atheist, meaning you don’t think one can prove the existence or nonexistence of gods, but you don’t choose to believe in one without further proof. Many people assume that atheists believe that gods can be proved not to exist, but this isn’t strictly true and there is no word to describe this. You could call such a person an “untheist”, perhaps. Or, you could just call such a person a “gnostic atheist”, one who doesn’t believe in a god and thinks that his non-belief can be proved.

So there are four possible ways one could be.

Agnostic-Theist: believes god exists, but it can’t be proved Gnostic-Theist: believes it can be proved that gods exist Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe god exists, but it can’t be proved Gnostic-Atheist: believes it can be proved that god does not exist — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evictor480 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Longer reply

You replaced:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.<ref-name=ref1/> In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.<ref-name=RoweRoutledge/> Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.<ref-name=religioustolerance/>

with

"Atheism" Is [sic] the postition [sic] of rejecting current [sic] available evidence for the existence of deities. Some use the atheism label to describe the personal opinion that there are no deities.

You removed 3 definitions (all of which have been accepted for almost 5 years in the edit history and each with a highly-reliable source) and substituted your own definition without providing a single source. Now you are saying that you are smarter than me, thus I (and all other editors of the page) should yield to your wishes. You know nothing about my qualifications, nor the history of the page. If you took some time to look at those, you might discover how to present your "arguments" with a little more humility. Before you lecture me again about agnosticism and atheism, etc, you might consult the edit history of those articles to see how long others have been debating these very issues within the context of writing an encyclopedia (to say nothing of other contexts). You are in for a lot of disappointment if you think those with other viewpoints should "get the hell off of wikipedia".

My preferred definition of the 3 is "rejection of belief" - but neither I nor anyone else gets to choose their own definition as the one to be endorsed by wikipedia. If you make atheism to be "rejecting current available evidence for the existence of deities" you are accepting that there IS currently available evidence. Rejecting belief in the existence of X is not the same as rejecting the existence of X - as you seem already to agree. Furthermore, if one rejects belief in the existence of X, one need not accept there is any evidence at all for X -- or one may say that one does not find the reasons people give FOR believing to be sufficiently persuasive. One might even reject belief because the whole idea of such an X is not in accord with what one sees in the world - or even does not make sense.

Rejecting evidence is a fool's game. Rejecting the claim that any evidence demonstrates the conclusion is a path that the agnostic atheist might take. However, he need not accept there is any evidence at all. Even numerous metaphysical theists argue that evidence (in the sense of "physical evidence") is not there.

That's just a start on why your substitution is weak. But, it is not up to me to "disprove" your version. The burden is on you to find support (in terms of sources and other editors) for any version such as yours. I refer you to WP:V, WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and, again, to the top of Talk:Atheism-- --JimWae (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The atheist position boils down to an affirmative belief that no such thing as God exists. This talk about non-belief being a default position is, and always has been, an exercise in hair-splitting. The real point of it, as everyone involved in the debate knows, is to shift the burden of proof from one party to another, when in fact neither side is capable of proving its position to the satisfaction of everyone. I think the current definition is fine the way it is - it mentions the orthodox atheist line on this subject without excluding other views. Carinae986 (talk) 07:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The first part truly confuses me as (1) a generalization, and (2) an odd comparison. Do you believe in green and purple striped two horned unicorns? Did you have an affirmative belief against such before I brought it up? I doubt you did. As for proofs, I don't recall proofs being submitted by atheists against the existence of a god or gods. The rest, I can agree with - even if in reality, there are many "definitions" people use to describe why they are atheists. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 01:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I aquired a positive belief that no such thing existed the moment you brought it up. By your analogy, an atheist would have to have never heard of God in order to have a mere absence of belief. Since atheists have, in fact, heard of such a thing as God, they do, in fact, have a positive belief that no such thing exists. I don't recall any proofs being submitted by atheists against the existence of god or gods either. Which makes one wonder how they can be so confident. Carinae986 (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, and not on the opinions of individual contributors. Your comments are therefore irrelevant (and incidentally, illogical, but that is beside the point - this isn't a forum for discussing 'atheism' in the abstract). AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you didn't noticed that the original definition of atheism, which I was defending, is in fact sourced...? Or that your opinion is not? Please take a moment to review the etiquitte guidelines. You may find them informative. Carinae986 (talk) 05:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of philosophers' motives for conceptualising atheism negatively as opposed to positively, and regardless of whether or not it is legitimate to conceptualise atheism so that theism bears the "burden of proof", the fact remains that atheism has been conceptualised in that way by philosophers, in published, verifiable, reliable sources. For Wikipedia, that's what matters. Wikipedia is not the forum for resolving once and for all how atheism is to be conceptualised. It is a place where people can come to find out how atheism has been conceptualised. --Dannyno (talk) 18:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems that people have settled on the broad spectrum of atheism is rejecting religion and the narrow spectrum of atheism as rejecting religion. Makes sense... you know, not having any difference in broad or narrow. Also, Wikipedia seems to not be the place to get information on how it's actually conceptualized in modern times without bias either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.39.62 (talk) 06:14, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Source Review - Definitions.

Hiyas - I know the problem of capturing definitions is an eggshell dance that few of us find much pleasure in, however, I was recently moved to look into the problem area (again) and I think that we owe it to the project to revisit some sources.

Kai Nielsen in EB

I have started with expanding the quote from Kai Nielsen in EB this edit. I trust that we can agree that it has relevance? un☯mi 20:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

That paragraph is primarily about agnosticism, though it also is about distinguishing atheists from agnostics. I have added more from the paragraph that is about atheists: belief that non-anthropomorphic referent for "God" has not been secured.--JimWae (talk) 21:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

What do you find that adds? Also, the quote is now somewhat imperfect "They [agnostics]" should more properly be: "They [many contemporary agnostics]" and it also seems to change the voice of the rest of the passage such as "though the talk is indeed radically paradoxical and in many ways incomprehensible" which in the excerpt seems to be of EB rather than the agnostics themselves ( see the line immediately before you started your addition to the quote ) "...many contemporary agnostics believe that the concept of God is radically problematic. They maintain that they are..". This may or may not have been Kai's intention, as he is after all a strong proponent of noncognitivism, but it strikes me that he managed to phrase it as attributed to the agnostics in question to a higher degree than the partial quote does. un☯mi 23:16, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Hey Jim, I am going to go ahead and remove your addition - we could add an expanded version as a second footnote if you want, just not quite seeing the need for involving noncognitivism in that one, btw what is your reading there? Isn't he referencing noncognitivism? un☯mi 07:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, it seems what you added was more about agnosticism than about atheism. The most we can be sure Neilsen intended is that at least *some* atheists think they are justified in saying that God does not exist (or, stronger still, that God cannot exist). This sounds almost (but not absolutely) like a reversal of: atheists need not maintain that "God exists" is false. I have to ask what you think your addition adds.--JimWae (talk) 07:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It removes an element of confusion regarding what is referred to with "atheists need not maintain that "God exists" is false" - we can expand on that in the talk section on extralinguistic referents if you see the need. un☯mi 02:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Please explain why I should not remove your addition as you did with mine (while we were still discussing it.....)? --JimWae (talk) 07:46, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• WP:BRD would be why - but that would probably equally apply to Unomi's addition that should have waited through the pending discussion before being made. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 01:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Your addition is mostly about agnosticism, not about defining atheism - and where it does talk about atheism we cannot conclude much from it. While what I added does include non-cognitivism regarding the agnostic, it also says something more explicit: that atheists believe they are justified in saying that no adequate nonanthropomorphic, extralinguistic referent for “God” has been secured, whereas some agnostics cannot decide if the word is sufficiently referential. Not having a referent is different from the concept not making any sense. (There is no referent for circle, but a square circle is contradictory.) Perhaps it is best to omit both yours and my additions.--JimWae (talk) 11:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

No, my addition is exactly about defining atheism - it very clearly states:

“

but unlike the atheist he does not think that he is justified in saying that God does not exist or, stronger still, that God cannot exist

”

This is important because there seems to have been confusion regarding "rejects" which Kai Nielsen here clarifies.

Your addition seems to go into the details of arguments behind various rationales, certainly valuable information, but I find it adds little value to that particular footnote - I have no objection to you adding a second footnote that addresses details of the underlying rationales or arguments. un☯mi 23:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Why can't I find that at the cite in question?[1] Just curious. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 02:06, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It is stated as the second sentence of the cite "Atheism is also distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question whether there is a god or not, professing to find the questions unanswered or unanswerable." - and it is developed further in a section about halfway through the article which starts:

“

Agnosticism has a parallel development to that of atheism. An agnostic, like an atheist, asserts either that he does not know that God exists—or, more typically, that he cannot know or have sound reasons for believing that God exists—but unlike the atheist he does not think that he is justified in saying that God does not exist or, stronger still, that God cannot exist.

”

un☯mi 16:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• I wrote an email to EB asking for clarification, this is what I got back:

“

Thank you for your email. The first paragraph of the atheism article is a very general description of what atheism is and how it contrasts with theism and agnosticism. You also queried the sentence: An agnostic, like an atheist, asserts either that he does not know that God exists or, more typically, that he cannot know or have sound reasons for believing that God exists but unlike the atheist he does not think that he is justified in saying that God does not exist or, stronger still, that God cannot exist. This sentence implies that the atheist believes that he is justified in saying that God does not exist or cannot exist. The implication is true. It is not put forward as a thesis to be qualified or refuted later. We hope this clears any confusion. We appreciate your interest in Britannica.

”

Is an authentication process required here? If so, what could it be? un☯mi 05:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

If you search you will see that I am listed as a contributor to the EB article, though in a very minor way. The people who answer those e-mails do not contact the author before responding if they think they can handle it. Anyway, there is nothing to object to in the reply. But there is still everything else that has already been repeatedly mentioned with regard to this passage. Yes, indeed, there are atheists who believe they are justified in saying that God does not exist. AND Nielsen himself thinks he is justified in saying the ANTHROPOMORPHIC God does not exist. There are also other atheists who do not make an existential claim, particularly not about the metaphysical God. THREE words cannot be taken out of one context and used to override paragraph after paragraph presenting another position. I am not alone here in thinking that you are making too much of those 3 words. --JimWae (talk) 07:18, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think Encyclopedia Britannica customer services should be considered to be a reliable source in relation to the intentions of the author of one of their articles. Secondly, I agree with JimWae that too much is being constructed on flimsy foundations, given the weight of the sources we have. --Dannyno (talk) 18:29, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I find it funny that people still state an Atheist can be "someone that does not make an existential claim". I sometimes wonder if people don't try to shape the definition to match their own position toward God. Atheism is not to have doubts of the existence of God. Atheist is the refusal in the belief of the existence of God. Now if you refuse the claim that God does exist you are not a doubter, you are stating that the existence of God is incorrect. If this isn't a claim then what is it? People seem to confuse doubt with disbelief. It's impossible to believe and doubt at the same time and is also impossible to doubt and disbelief at the same time. If i doubt i question (it's possible that God exists and is also possible God doesn't exist), if i disbelief i refuse a claim (God doesn't exist). Doubt is the middle ground and is not part of Theism or Atheism. Just like Theist claim God exists, Atheist claim God doesn't exist. I mean just look at the words A + Theism. Enough said. Tacv (talk) 14:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Disbelief can mean doubt, for instance from the Princeton University's WordNet database [2] as shown on Onelook here:

Quick definitions from WordNet (disbelief)

▸ noun: doubt about the truth of something

▸ noun: a rejection of belief

--Modocc (talk) 20:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

My friend that's not correct. If you refuse something you are not doubting it. Doubt is uncertainty, is "Tend to disbelief" not Disbelief. Using your source and from the first link (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language) we see:

• VERB:
• doubt·ed, doubt·ing, doubts
• VERB:
• To be undecided or skeptical about: began to doubt some accepted doctrines.
• To tend to disbelieve; distrust: doubts politicians when they make sweeping statements.
• NOUN:
• A lack of certainty that often leads to irresolution. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
• A lack of trust.
• A point about which one is uncertain or skeptical: reassured me by answering my doubts.
• The condition of being unsettled or unresolved: an outcome still in doubt.

Now Atheism is not the doubt about the existence of God. It's the disbelief (refusal, rejection) of God - "There is no God". A doubter is someone that do not refuse the existence of God, but rather claim not to be certain that God exist. This means that:

Theist - God exist (out of believing not of knowing). I do not know if God exist, but i hold as truth he does (belief). - Claim of truth and not a claim of knowledge

Atheist - God doesn't exist (out of disbelief in God not of knowing). I don't know if God exist, but i hold as truth that he doesn't (disbelief). - Claim of truth and not a claim of knowledge

Doubter - God may or may not exist. I don't know if God exist and so i'm uncertain of his existence (doubt). - Not a claim of truth nor a claim of knowledge.

Note: that both in Atheism and in Theism also exist people that claim knowledge (related to Fundamentalism), but since the existence of God is not known, a claim of knowledge is an unfounded claim - which make it a belief, even though they personally don't understand it as such

If you refuse to hold as truth that God exist then you hold as truth it's opposite, that God doesn't exist. A doubter in the other hand do not refuse it , but rather question it (uncertainty). It's a contradiction to claim you're an Atheist and a Doubter 'cause they are not the same thing. An Agnostic in the other hand is a natural doubter. And that is one of the difference between Agnosticism and Atheism. Tacv (talk) 15:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

"It's a contradiction to claim you're an Atheist and a Doubter" This contradiction you find is only a result of your definition for atheism. But there is more than one definition of atheism, as there are more than one definition of disbelief. If a dictionary defines atheism as "the disbelief in the existence of a God or gods" then, this can mean either "the rejection of belief in the existence of a God or gods" OR "the doubt about the truth in the existence of a God or gods" per the Princeton source for disbelief. Thus there are different definitions for these words that people can choose and the disbelief definition in particular can be broad enough such that it includes agnostics that are not theists (people can also view disbelief even broader than that by taking disbelief to also mean lack of faith and synonymous with non-belief). In addition, given that there are different definitions for agnosticism (see the article for details), there are also agnostics that are theists without contradiction, see the article agnostic theism. --Modocc (talk) 16:20, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Modocc, the lack of contradiction really only holds true if you focus on the semi-fringe, the consensus of the weight of the sources is that there is in fact exactly this contradiction - which is why you see atheism and agnosticism contrasted again and again - such as in reputable 'mainstream' sources as EB, and other nontheist scholars like Drange. un☯mi 17:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

---

Unomi has been changing the quote in the citation from EB for the rejection def. He wrote in an edit summary: This is for the summary form of the definition - feel free to write up another footnote for the comprehensive one, please do so with out too many instances of "...") However, the text he is quoting does NOT support the rejection def AND is not from the section of the article where Nielsen states he is giving the most comprehensive definiton of atheism. Citation quotes are there to support the text of the article, not to promote someone's idiosyncratic view of what the article is about. The EB article is structured VERY differently from a WP article - 1> Every section of the EB article is about defining atheism 2> No section of the EB article is significantly about anything else 3> The article starts with a general view AND then EXPLICITLY states it will start with unsatisfactory definitions and work toward a more adequate one. 4> Nielsen presents his most comprehensive def of atheism in the LAST section of the article. 5>His 3-word mention of a contrast with agnosticism in the final section does not override everything else he has said in the article. Unomi's view has been opposed by 5 or 6 editors and supported by none. The burden is on him to gain support for his view before making any further changes the article. Please join me in not condoning this obstructive editing. --JimWae (talk) 18:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know why you don't simply create a footnote that encapsulates what you find to be the 'crucial' information from the EB article which can the co-exist with the summary of the EB article. un☯mi 18:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Your footnote does not support the text. The one that has been there since April 2007 does.--JimWae (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Here is the entire relevant sentence:

Instead of saying that an atheist is someone who believes that it is false or probably false that there is a God, a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God for the following reasons (which reason is stressed depends on how God is being conceived): for an anthropomorphic God, the atheist rejects belief in God because it is false or probably false that there is a God; for a nonanthropomorphic God (the God of Luther and Calvin, Aquinas, and Maimonides), he rejects belief in God because the concept of such a God is either meaningless, unintelligible, contradictory, incomprehensible, or incoherent; for the God portrayed by some modern or contemporary theologians or philosophers, he rejects belief in God because the concept of God in question is such that it merely masks an atheistic substance—e.g., “God” is just another name for love, or “God” is simply a symbolic term for moral ideals.

Here is the entire sentence 5 paragraphs later, in the same section:

Atheists, by contrast, believe that it [an adequate nonanthropomorphic, extralinguistic referent for “God”] has not been, and indeed some of them believe that it cannot be, secured.

As anyone can see, there is parenthetic and other less important text that were removed in the interest of brevity. If the consensus is to not have ellipses, that is fine with me. --JimWae (talk) 19:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

As OrangeMarlin indicated, we do run a risk of OR / Synth - especially since you seem to interpret the text as somehow being incompatible with atheists not leaving the question open - which EB ( and other sources ) repeatedly state. Still, I think that the footnote that you propose could at the very least be used to support our section on forms of atheism further, so I have no objection to you adding such a footnote ( preferably without ellipsis ). un☯mi 19:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Absent Orangemarlin's own comments, despite repeated invitations to him to join in, please do not presume to interpret his actions. To repeat, the quote you give does not support the rejection def, so it does not belong there. --JimWae (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I concur with JimWae regarding which quote belongs in the footnote. It is there to support our article's text (along with the Edwards quote). Nielson does give a broad general definition to start the article that is consistent with our text, but the definition he gives later directly supports our choice of the word rejection. This detail given with Nielson's comprehensive definition is important with respect to our policy of wp: verify, especially since words have different meanings and usages, and its not always enough for readers to accept a paraphrase of a different text as being supported, which might be unsatisfactory and therefore construed as wp:OR. Hence, the quote we have now is best, either in truncated form or fully expanded. --Modocc (talk) 22:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

First of all, no references are there to support article text - article text is there because it is supported by sources. The distinction might seem small, but it is unfortunately exactly what is wasting our time here. Second of all, "the definition he gives later" is exactly the same definition that he gives initially - it is delusional to think otherwise. If you have to dig deep into a discussion on noncognitivism to snatch a sentence which includes the word rejection - then chances are that you are in fact engaging in quote-mining, that wouldn't be so bad, except that you seem wholly ignorant of how the word that you have snatched out is used. un☯mi 23:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The sourced quotes are supporting the text. Nielson gives us not just a sentence that includes the word rejection, he SAYS that the sentence we quote is his more adequate definition of atheism. --Modocc (talk) 00:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

You aren't paying attention. un☯mi 00:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The source materials define atheism different than how the wiki page defines atheism. Why cite a source if your definition is going to be different than the sources definiton? Either find a different source that affirms what the definition is or change the current wiki definition to match that of the source.

wiki: "In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities"[2]

[2]: "in the narrow sense of the term an atheist is anyone who disbelieves in the existence of this being"

[2] is more general about the narrow sense of atheism whereas the wiki states the narrow definition is specifc.

Wiki:

 Broad- Rejection of belief
  Narrow - specific position no deities

[1]:Encyclopedia Britanica,

 "atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings". 

[2]:

  Broad - Denies existence
  Narrow - anyone who disbelieves 

Both sources [1] and [2] say the broad term for atheism is the denial of a God. Not only does the [2] source use the term denial instead of rejection(i tried to edit the definition to say denial and instead of rejection and i was told the source says rejection) which reinforces [1]'s definition. Furthermore, [2] actually switches the narrow and broad definitions around. The definitions on the wiki page do not match the source material definitions. Therefore it would seem the article as it stands violates Wikipedia's guidelines, "Sources must support the material clearly and directly". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOURCES#Original_research.

Mastermike14 (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Mastermike14. These sources are actually making more than one kind of broad/narrow distinction, but you are perhaps focusing on the God vs. divinity distinction only? Its somewhat difficult to decipher though what you are writing about such as with this:[2]:Broad - Denies existence Narrow - anyone who disbelieves which does not seem to follow from the source, and this: "in the narrow sense of the term an atheist is anyone who disbelieves in the existence of this being", because that is not an exact quote from the source, nor does the source imply the equality with "anyone who disbelieves" you are making here because atheism which "affirms the nonexistence of God" is a narrow subset of a more general disbelief. Of course, rejection and denial are nearly synonymous, especially when either term is paired with the term belief as in a denial of belief and rejection of belief, which can mean disbelief. But denial (or rejection) of belief in existence is not equivalent to a denial of existence. To clarify, as Edwards (cited immediately after Nielsen) points out, a nontheist that is without belief can reject a belief for reasons other than asserting nonexistence (or, in other words, reasons other than denying existence, thus only denying having a belief in existence). It should be apparent that, Edwards' definition, which is used by Nielsen, is a broader conception of atheism than positive atheism by its inclusion of explicit negative atheism and our atheism article does discuss such various conceptions of atheism in detail. Again, its hard to follow your reading of the citations, but from your recent attempted edits to the article, you did address the traditions of God and divinity as being more narrow/broad which is correct, but the current lede simply does not, since the Abraham God is a deity. --Modocc (talk) 07:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi. First off, "'in the narrow sense of the term an atheist is anyone who disbelieves in the existence of this being", because that is not an exact quote from the source", this is an exact quote from the Routledge source. "As used in this entry, in the narrow sense of the term an atheist is anyone who disbelieves in the existence of this being, while in the broader sense an atheist is someone who denies the existence of any sort of divine reality"[sic].

"Since many different gods have been objects of belief, one might be an atheist with respect one god while believing in the existence of some other god", so to state that atheism rejects all deities would be false. What Routledge is saying is that in a narrow sense of atheism one only denies God in the classical sense of God. But in the broader term, an atheist is someone who disbelieves in the existence of ALL deities, not just the one of "traditional Western theology". So to say that the narrowest term of atheism is "specifically the position that there are not deities" is not supported by Routledge. Routledge gives an example illustrating broad and narrow terms, "In the narrow sense, the Protestant theologian Paul Tillich was an atheist, for he disbelieved in the existence of the God of traditional theism. But in the broader sense he was a theist, since he believed that there is a divine reality". This is why i disagree with how atheism is currently defined in the wiki article, because according to wiki's definition for narrow, "specifically the position that there are no deities", Paul Tillich could not be defined as an atheist under this definition because he did not specifically take the position that there are no deities, he just took the position that the classical god was false but he did hold a belief in a deity, "But in the broader sense he was a theist, since he believed that there is a divine reality, being-itself (the God beyond the traditionalistic theistic God)"[sic].

In the broadest sense atheism is specifcally the position that there are no deities. This is supported by Routledge and Britannica. In the narrowest sense, one rejects the traditional idea of a God.

Mastermike14 (talk) 07:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I struck my mistaken concern about your quote. You are correct about the God/deity distinction, but there are still other distinctions made. For instance, the Routledge acknowledges there is the broadest sense of "nonbelief", although it says that "as used in this entry" it does not use it that way. The Routledge is being used only to source that atheism is "the position that there are no deities" as such, and is not being used in this regards to compare the different definitions that are given by us from the different sources (these sources are not in full agreement with each other). Routledge's own broad sense is simply to include any divinity, but it may not be the best source for "no deities" since not all deities might be considered divine? In any case, as has been pointed out, there are other distinctions that are made by the different sources which you have not yet addressed though. --Modocc (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Routledge

We are currently using a quote from the 1998 Routledge Encyclopedia - however, the link doesn't seem correct any more.

• The Routledge Dictionary of Philosophy 2010.

“

Atheism. Atheism is disbelief in the existence of God, or, more strongly, affrming God’s non-existence. Within Western philosophy this has taken the form of criticizing the traditional arguments for the existence of God and providing further reasons for supposing that God does not exist — for example, that the concept of God is a logically inconsistent one, or that the existence of evil in the world is incompatible with the existence of the traditionally conceived omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent Christian God (see THEODICY). See AGNOSTICISM (and Smart’s article listed there).

”

• Concise Routledge encyclopedia of philosophy 2000.

“

ATHEISM Atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief. Since many different gods have been objects of belief one might be an atheist with respect to one god while believing in the existence of some other god. In the religions of the west - Judaism. Christianity and Islam - the dominant idea of God is of a purely spiritual. supernatural being who is the perfectly good. all-powerful. all-knowing creator of everything other than himself. As used in this entry, in the narrow sense of the term an atheist is anyone who disbelieves in the existence of this being, while in the broader sense an atheist is someone who denies the existence of any sort of divine reality. The justification of atheism in the narrow sense requires showing that the traditional arguments for the existence of God are inadequate as well as providing some positive reasons for thinking that there is no such being. Atheists have criticized the traditional arguments for belief and have tried to justify positive disbelief by arguing that the properties ascribed to this being are incoherent and that the amount and severity of evils in the world make it quite likely that there is no such all-powerful, perfectly good being in control.

”

• Routledge philosophy guidebook to Hume on religion

“

Atheism comes in different forms, the strongest denying any kind of deity. But the term is also commonly used to mean denial of the God of theism specifically, thereby relativizing atheism to standard theism. By virtue of his acceptance of a weak form of deism, Hume is no atheist in the strongest sense of the term. Thus it would be false and misleading to call him an atheist, plain and simple. But neither is that the last word on the subject ... ( further comes a not uninteresting read, but one not necessarily relevant here )

”

Oxford

• The Oxford dictionary of philosophy 2005

“

atheism Either the lack of belief that there exists a god, or the belief that there exists none. Sometimes thought itself to be more dogmatic than mere agnosticism, although atheists retort that everyone is an atheist about most gods, so they merely advance one step further.

”

• Note: The previous text quoting the definition did not match what is in the 2005 edition, it is possible that the newer 2008 edition holds different text - if so, please make a scan available. I made changes to reflect the easily verifiable edition in this edit. un☯mi 22:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I can confirm that the wording is unchanged in the '08 edition. Link (subscription required). --Cybercobra (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Religious Diversity among Atheists

The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life conducts the US Religious Landscape Survey. The second report in this survey tells us that: Among atheists, 21% believe in God; 12% believe that God is an impersonal force; and 6% believe that God is personal. Among atheists, 12% believe in heaven while 10% believe in hell. Among atheists, 10% pray at least weekly while 18% meditate at least weekly. The atheist community appears to have considerable religious diversity. http://freethoughtblogs.com/camelswithhammers/2011/12/28/religious-diversity-among-atheists/.
Could this have place in the article? The Pew Forum made his survey among USA’s self-identified “Atheists”. If we say (as I read in many comments) that those are not 'real atheists' we should question all the surveys on demographics.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.247.63.47 (talk) 12:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

My reaction, in principle, is that this may be worth including, but I note that the source to which you link is a commentary that may be cherry-picking data to make a point. The source, in turn, links to the original study [3], which is much longer, and we should instead base any edits on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the original study, it seems to actually suggest that the correlation between what people taking part in surveys mean by 'atheism' and the formal definitions this article has attempted to find is less than straightforward. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

You've got to be frickin kidding me. The title of the article is a frickin' oxymoron! "diversity of color among things that do not have color." are you people going insane or are you already insane? don't answer that. a person who does ANY of the following things is obviously NOT an atheist in any way, shape or form:

• believe in God - this is a big fricking DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• believe that God is an impersonal force - see above
• believe that God is personal - see above
• believe in heaven - see above
• believe in hell - see above
• pray at least weekly - see above

finally, meditation is an activity some people do for psychological health. like eating and drinking is for physical health. yes, some religions include meditation. some also include eating and drinking, but that doesn't make eating and drinking religious activities.

In sum, this has to be the stupidest thing i have ever read, and i have read some god awful stupid things in my life! i can't believe you guys are even acknowledging it, nonetheless having a discussion about it! what part of "atheists do not believe in god" do you not understand? jesus h. christ! Kevin Baas^talk 17:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

You appear to be complaining about the (alleged) stupidity of the people who took part in the survey, or possibly in those who conducted it. The results may not seem logical, but they are nevertheless results. Whether they are of any particular relevance to this article is another matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I Think you have to doubt the reliability of a source that can produce such figures.IdreamofJeanie (talk) 17:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Why? The figures are entirely plausible, if you assume (a) that not everyone who answers opinion-poll questions necessarily attaches the same meaning to them, and (b) not everyone who answers opinion-poll questions necessarily gives a true answer. In short, the problem isn't the (original) source as such, but with trying to get simplistic answers to complex questions through polling. It might also be a reflection on the U.S. educational system, but I'd perhaps best avoid going too far down that path... AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

On that point, i recall reading a study that showed that a large fraction of people who self-identify as conservatives actually lean far to the left on political spectrum test (e.g. http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html). so does that imply that we should make changes to the articles on conservative and liberal political orientation so at to make them indistinguishable from each other? maybe we should just have one redirect to the other?

obviously i'm being facetious. the people answered that way on the survey because they didn't understand the definitions of "conservative" and "liberal". it is not surprising that not everyone did, what was surprising was the extent of confusion. and that is also surprising about this survey that we are discussing. esp. in that the poll conductors seem to be extremely confused, as well. maybe we shouldn't find these things all that surprising. maybe we should be used to it by now, and accept the fact that it might be a reflection on the U.S. educational system, but I'd perhaps best avoid going too far down that path... Kevin Baas^talk 18:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

(ec) possibly both, i suppose. they are results, no doubt, but the results of what? the people conducting the survey should have known that none of the people who they interviewed where atheists. that's plain as day. so this is a survey, yes. is it a survey of atheists? No. So how is it relevant to this article, which IS about atheism? I see no way in which it could be considered remotely relevant. Had they interviewed atheists, maybe. Had they asked them questions that could have possibly produced the slightest variation in answers among athiests, maybe. Did they have the slightest clue what the hell they were talking about, maybe. Could they tell an atheist from a hole in the wall, maybe. They did none of these things. If you want to use this article as wikipedia content, i recommend bringing it up on the mental illness page. There, it is certainly relevant.

The reference User:Tryptofish provided is a reliable source and is indeed grounds for inclusion in the article as it details the demongraphics of atheism. If we are going to report the percentage of individuals who report themselves as atheists, we must also present the relevant characteristics of this demographic. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 22:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

And if you do that, then logically you must also report the large number of people who don't describe themselves as atheists, but nevertheless state that they don't believe in god. The poll doesn't just indicate a disparity amongst one group - it reflects a larger trend. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear User:AndyTheGrump, sure I agree with your statement that "logically you must also report the large number of people who don't describe themselves as atheists, but nevertheless state that they don't believe in God." However, the addition of that information would be most appropriate on the articles concerning the specific group in question, e.g. Mainline churches, Muslim, Hindu, etc. In addition, to contradict another user's statement, atheists can be religious, as delineated by the following study. If there is still objection to the inclusion of the study, I may start an RfC soon. I look forward to your comments. With regards, Anupam^Talk 23:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

What are you proposing to include? The data merely demonstrates a general point - that there isn't always a direct correlation between describing yourself as an atheist, and not believing in god. There appear to be significantly more people who don't describe themselves as atheists, but that state that they don't believe in god (see below), than there are people who describe themselves as atheists in total. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I am proposing to include the following sentence: "One-in-five Americans who identify themselves as atheists express belief in God or a universal spirit." This assertion is supported by a direct quote in the study, which states: " Nearly all adults (92%) say they believe in God or a universal spirit, including seven-in-ten of the unaffiliated. Indeed, one-in-five people who identify themselves as atheist (21%) and a majority of those who identify themselves as agnostic (55%) express a belief in God or a universal spirit." I look forward to your reply. With regards, Anupam^Talk 23:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

And exclude the larger number of people who according to the survey, didn't describe themselves as atheists, but stated that they had no belief in a god? That would be cherry-picking the data. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I do not think the data should be excluded. I stated before that one could add that data to the appropriate articles, e.g. Mainline Protestantism, in which the beliefs of adherents of that faith are detailed. Do you understand what I'm saying? With regards, Anupam^Talk 23:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand that: I disagree with it. You are cherry-picking data for this article, which is what we are discussing here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

@Anupam, the authors of the study are taking note only of results they have obtained within the context of their specific study/finding. To be framed properly, one would have to write "According to a Pew Research Study..." but even then this is not being reliably sourced to a quality secondary source. Without such sourcing, it runs afoul of wp:NOR by giving this primary source result, with dubious significance, wp:undue weight and inadequate context. --Modocc (talk) 00:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Look at the Whole Survey

You need to go back to the main web page and look at the whole survey (done in 2007) details. They say "atheists and agnostics are defined here as all respondents who described themselves as being atheistic or agnostic, even though some of them may believe in some notion of God." The survey seems to me basically OK and gives some insight into religious beliefs in the USA. Unfortunately it is not possible to verify the claim that of "(those calling themselves) atheists 21% believe in God" because the data tables only have atheists under the general heading "unaffiliated". Of the total of 35,556 respondents, they say that 1.6% were atheist, which is about 570 people, which is a small number. It is not impossible to suppose that this included 120 (21%) who were unsure or confused during the questionnaire, or who had an answer wrongly recorded. Thus, while I think the survey does give some valid patterns for the larger groups, it cannot be considered a reliable estimate for US atheists. A different analysis of the same survey says that 5% definitely do not believe in God, of whom 24% call themselves atheists, 35% nothing in particular, 15% agnostic, 24% follow some religion.Chemical Engineer (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

so in the USA the atheists are 1.6% but the 'not believing in God' are 5%.

Do you believe in God is a much easier question. If you get people mistaking paediatrician for paedophile [4], well what should one expect? I'm surprised the figure is as low as 5% for belief in God. My understanding is that in America being an atheist is viewed as something worse than being a communist and one answers questions like this based on group identity rather than anything to do with personal belief. Dmcq (talk) 10:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Dmcq. This study shows more about the lack of understanding of the word "atheist" among Americans than it does about the demographics of beliefs in the USA. If it will be included in the article, it should be mentioned as such. Attributing this lack of semantic understanding to an intrinsic characteristic of atheism is dishonest. And if one is to say that all beliefs, philosophies, economic ideas, etc. suffer from the same misunderstanding, then it is a tautology and saying it is meaningless. It adds nothing to the article. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 01:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree, very odd source. Hmmm....Did anybody check related pages, like agnosticism? I'll bet they've been carpet bombed with this by an editor with a very anti-atheist POV. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 06:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Entry is about "atheism" not "atheists"

The proposed addition above is of peripheral interest to this article, which isn't about people who self-identify as atheists. A better place for both sets of information, that some people who claim to be "atheists" actually believe in god and that some who don't claim to be atheists don't believe in god might be relevant at Demographics of atheism. As to the quality of the source, it is of very high quality. Pew is an extremely well respected research institution and scholars of religion, and of irreligion, refer to the findings of Religious Landscape Survey all the time.Griswaldo (talk) 19:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

About the main article image

I think it's a bit biased to use the only instance in which the word is used in The Bible as the main image on the article. Atheism is much broader than just not believing in the Abrahamic god. I want to propose that we change the image to something more universal. Also, the same image is used in the first section, Etymology and usage, juxtaposed with a paragraph talking about early ancient Greek. The image is from the 3rd century AD and does not correspond to the topic discussed. The only relation is that the word is in Greek. It could just as easily be written in a modern font. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 20:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

need for revision & source problems in atheism/agnosticism distinction in 1st paragraph

As it stands:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3][4] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists,[6][7] and with agnosticism, which leaves the matter of existence open.[8]"

Atheism and agnosticism are, of course, diametrically opposed; atheism and agnosticism can coexist. I'm not sure what the intent was, but it reads as though agnosticism is being positioned as rejection of both atheism and theism.

I would suggest something like "Atheism is directly contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists. It is also distinguished from but not incompatible with agnosticism, the view that the existence of a deity is unknown or unknowable." It would be worthwhile to make it clearly compatible with the agnosticism page it links to.

The sources for [8] also need to be cleaned up.

The Atheism and secularity source, first of all, mentions 'agnosticism' only in passing and offers nothing to support the claim it's offered as a source for.

The Encyclopædia Britannica Concise entry is different from the 2011 Encyclopædia Britannica entry only in that some detail has been removed; it should not be presented as though it is a distinct source offering additional support for the position.

I am mystified by the use of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica entry. Calling on an outdated version of an encyclopedia for non-historical purposes is just not good scholarship, especially when the topic is something like agnosticism: more that twice as much time has passed between the writing of the entry and today than between the original coining of the word and the writing of the entry.

Basically... it should be cut to only the 2011 Encyclopædia Britannica entry. Warm Worm (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I haven't been hugely active in the discussions of late, but I was surprised to find that excerpt in the lead. Skimming the page (but admittedly not reading every word), I see healthy opposition to its proposal due to content, wording, and sources. If I've missed somewhere that consensus was clearly established for the addition, please point me to it. Absent that consensus, I've removed the wording temporarily pending discussion. I'd like to reiterate the concerns of other editors that, even if the content is appropriate given our sources, the current wording is not, since it very directly leads the reader to conclude that "rejection of belief" and "absence of belief" do not "leave the matter of existence open". This proposed definition of agnosticism is quite clearly only contrasted with "strong/explicit atheism", so we can not make general statements such as this, particularly in the lead while detailing our other definitions with which it isn't contrasted. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Though your sentences contrasting atheism with theism and agnosticism seem lucid and clear, I opine we should lead this article with what atheism is, not with what atheism isn't. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 01:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

determining how many atheists exist in the world today is difficult ....

And yet you undertook to do so. My first suggestion would be to just pull that ¶ rather than begin a process. I believe 90% of the population of China (or better) should be included and substantial portions of the population of Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, and some parts of Europe would result in a far larger number. This appears to be glaring POV pushing, purposeful distortion of the facts, but opening this thread for resolution. I am sorry if it's inconvenient for you but any definition of Atheism is going to fit these populations and the ludicrous figure of 2.3% needs a numerical opposite POV partner to balance the obvious POV pushing I have little doubt looking at the source will reveal if it stays. 72.228.177.92 (talk)

So if bean counting is to remain, should be as easy to source something like "By some other estimates, the number would be as high as 20% or more". 72.228.177.92 (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are proposing a particular figure it should be based on reliable sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed change to banner.

Wikipedia has no policy on respecting other's views. This phrasing in the banner is inane and false (I would direct you to Talk:Muhammad/images. I suggest a change to. "...supported by a reliable source and adheres to a neutral point of view."

Thoughts?--Adam in MO Talk 02:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Sentence Restructuring to First Paragraph for Accurate Conveyance

The last sentence in the first opening paragraph reads: "Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

The sentence structure seems to convey the idea that theism itself asserts the existence of one deity while allowing for the possibility of more.

I recommend it be changed to "Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which (in its most general form) entails belief in the existence of one or more deities." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Synaptic Elucidation (talk • contribs) 08:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

"Problem of Evil" As a Rationale For Atheism

I don't believe the problem of evil is a rationale for atheism (as stated in paragraph 3), let alone the most fundamental one (it is mentioned first). It is obvious that atheism is being defined on Wiki from an Abrahamic perspective, where God is perfectly good. Evil may exist in the world, and there may still be gods or creators of the universe. Rsokhi (talk) 13:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

We define rationale for atheism by what is mentioned in reliable sources. As an aside; the problem of evil represents a major issue for a class of Gods including the Abrahamic god, it is one of many rationales so I don't think it's a major issue to include it. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

should there be something about the people who help to spread atheist ideas

There is some information on the page about the people who write the books and about the social impact but what about the people who transmit these ideas. What about the acts and entertainers who stick their necks out to transmit these ideas to the public. They risk more than just being unpopular and I think they deserve some recognition for making a stand. I am preparing a page about pop group Foxy Freedom when I can find all the information. Have you heard of Penn and Teller the magicians? What about Derren Brown the magician and hypnotist? There is a filmed interview with Dawkins. Brown also did a tv show exposing psychics and another one when he visited the US to expose the tricks that faith healers use to fool people. He showed how to fool a crowd into thinking that a blind person had been cured. I know people who became atheists after seeing that on TV. So I feel that people who are risking so much should be recognised. Nevertheless, keep up the good work.Spread knowledge not ignorance (talk) 06:20, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

There is this: List of atheists. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 07:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

This article is not meant to be a propaganda tool for atheism. Notable atheist thinkers, and the reception of them, should of course be mentioned, but your personal experiences about entertainers and magicians are not sufficient rationale for them to be included in the article. There are among other things issues of notability, undue weight and prevalence of reliable secondary sources to be taken into consideration. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)