Talk:Athens

Replaced Pano

I replaced the panorama taken from Lykkabetus hill with one from the exact same angle but less choppy. Looks much better.

Please replace photos in toolbox

Please put a photo of acropolis (larger than the previous,aphoto of the area and the city's seal.Thank you.

Olympics

Hey could we get some information about the downside of the Olympics? I have read in multiple other sources that it was very bad for the Athenian economy.

Added a template

I created and added a Landmarks in Athens template.

Location of Athens

Take a look at the red point showing the loc. of Athens in Greece, correct it

Article of European Temp record re-entered

Why was this removed?Article re-entered,since its important to mention that WMO gives it officially to Athens.

Reference verification issue (climate)

As a reference for the statement that the highest temperatures recorded in western Athens compared to other parts of the city are due to natural causes the following reference was entered: http://www.eib.org/attachments/pipeline/20090584_eia_el.pdf that is a Environmental Impact Study for an industrial project. In my opinion such reference should be used with caution because the area of Elefsina is known for air, water and thermal pollution due to industrial emissions and waste. Using that reference might be like entrusting the fox with the guard of the chickens. A State or an academic report would be far more credible than a private one. However, I would like to ask reference verification for the relation between the Impact Study and the Wikipedia text. I have read with the aid of google-translate the paragraphs of that work regarding climate (4.1.6 and subparagraphs), and I found only descriptive statistics about climate averages, minimums, maximums etcetera, but I found no causal statements imputing this or that cause of the summer climate of the zone. That text is written in Greek, and it is quite long. So it is very long to me to read it word by word looking for the target statement or equivalent concepts. So, I would like to know where that texts say that, in which page, so I can check with reasonable effort. Also copying and pasting here the original text with the specification of the original page so we can check would be appreciated. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I cannot find any such statement in the report. Maybe you can add a "failed verification" tag to the cite or preferably remove it altogether. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 17:13, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I do not expect to find a very specific citation like "All western Athens heat is natural and industrial pollution does not matter at all". Also some mention to heating effects due to warm winds or to the lack or water exchange in the Gulph (invented examples) would satisfy me. In the climate paragraph I did not find even undirect assertions of this kind but they could be elsewhere. This is the reason why I asked: it is too long to check it copying-pasting into google-translate 430 pages one by one. Now I search how to place this "failed verification" tag. Rather than deleting immediately the fragment, if I am not sure that I simply missed the proper page, I would prefer to use the tag and to wait some time before deleting the target text. Thanks again. --Amending (talk) 17:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

No problem at all and thank you for your suggestions. I will check again with your clarifications in mind, but it may take some time. In the meantime you can use the {{failed verification}} template. Best regards. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 18:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thankyou again for your time and effort. The Environmental Impact Study text is very long and in most parts it is technical, it is not easy to verify. I have tagged the reference. --Amending (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

It was a pleasure working with you. Take care Amending. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:14, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I have just shortened to various natural reasons as to not sound too technical.The report mentions among other reasons geomorphology ,warm water masses,warm winds etc.Unless we want to sound too technical i dont see a reason as to why we need to add all this info.If you have another wording I am open to discuss it.So i have reverted.Also re introduced partially as it is implied that this is the only factor and also sounds biased without it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Could you possibly provide us with an exact quote, in Greek, from the paper? Thanks. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Also I will shortly be adding the Pavlidou 2010 reference on Elefsina supporting the climatic variability of the bay and the area as dynamic to its warm summer climate.Note that there is a special reference that shows that the pollution of the Elefsina area is steadily decreasing the last decade.A far newer reference which I will use to completely take out the other less relevant reference provided by Amending — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 23:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Also Dr.K I have added the extremely valuable reference from Konstantinos Mavrogiannis where in his book regarding the Athenian climate, firstly published in 1841, page 29 he specifically mentions that western Athens has been known to have higher temperatures than the rest of the city.I have the 1981 publication of the book with me in hard copy (it is in Kathareuousa however).I am not sure if it is readily available in the net however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 00:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks like good, perhaps some paper would mention also favonic conditions, and then a "warm winds" would be OK. The 2011 paper I cited does not refer to the Elefsina bay however. Western parts there are Korydallos, Agia Varvara, Haidari, Egaleo, Petroupoli, Peristeri, Llion, Agii Anagyri and Zefyri. --Amending (talk) 06:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the current version is reasonable. The Giannopoulou K., Livada I., Santamouris M., Saliari M., Assimakopoulos M., Caouris Y.G. (2011). "On the characteristics of the summer urban heat island in Athens, Greece". Sustainable Cities and Society, 1, pp. 16-28 reference concludes that the high temperatures of Athens are due to the landscape shape operating as a heat-trap with the reinforcement operated by urbanization, industrialization, and anthropogenetic heat. The latter are artificial factors, but the earlier is natural. Elsewhere in the paper they say that the mountains shield the western parts from cool northern winds more than they do in the other parts of the city. It is reasonable to conclude that despite of the most intense industrialization effect operating in the western parts, the mountains shield the winds and prevent them from sweeping away the accumulated anthropogenetic heat (while in other parts of the city the wind may sweep away the urban heat island in some circumstances). So at least one known natural factor operates. --Amending (talk) 08:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Amending. Since you have access to the paper by Giannopoulou et al. and can verify the concepts, I am fine with that. I am still not sure about the The Environmental Impact Study pdf reference, since no verbatim Greek text has been provided, but I will leave it at that for the moment hoping such quotation can be provided. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 16:08, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Other references currently in the article text hold that principle (all that heat has substantive natural components), and non-pertinent references might be simply dropped. Me too I'd appreciate to see a copy-paste of the target text or a screenshot of it. It is also possible, however, that in a 430 page book in another language one editor can't retrieve a specific sentence or fragment of sentence s/he had read in the past. In such case in my opinion such editor should drop the reference, especially when other references hold the concept as it happens in this case. But this is the same reason why I would suggest to specify the page where one found the things. In a 12-20 pages article, it is matter of 1/2 hour to read it and retrieve the sentence. In a book that is more difficult. Who wants to check (or maybe who is interested in going into greater detail about background concepts) should preferably be given the page number. That's my opinion.

I would like also to express one reserve about providing reference to a hardcopy of a book in Greek as a response to a request of verification for a reference to a web accessible text in Greek. This is, in practice, providing a reference which is even more difficult to verify than the original reference which is difficult to verify (and the difficolty of which originated the query). I believe that verifying should be encouraged and facilitated. --Amending (talk) 12:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Especially the "Environmental Impact Study" needs specific page numbers and exact quotes to be verifiable, since it is so lengthy. In Wikipedia we need to be able to verify facts according to WP:V. Verifiability has to be facilitated by page numbers and quotations. Verifiability does not mean that one must swim in walls of text, in a foreign language to boot, until they drown. Same goes with obscure, out of print, books. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 13:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

After almost one month we are still waiting for the screenshots of the target text...--Amending (talk) 20:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Means table addition

Hi I would like to add the means of the Thiseio station for period 1971-2000 as published in the monthly bulletins of the National Observatory of Athens.I am a bit confused with the tables though,can someone help?

Here are the data provided from the N.O.A http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm , go to monthly bulletins and choose month of interest and data will appear.I have used the 2010 bulletins as reference.I am retaining the 1961-1990 mean for rain as the 1971-2000 data have not been published.

1971-2000 Thiseio station WMO id 16714 January Mean max 13.0 Mean min 6.7 Rain 44.6mm (1961-1990) February Mean max 13.7 Mean min 6.8 Rain 48.3mm March Mean max 16.1 Mean min 8.2 Rain 42.6mm April Mean max 20.5 Mean min 11.6 Rain 28.2mm May Mean max 25.8 Mean min 16.0 Rain 17.2mm June Mean max 30.6 Mean min 20.4 Rain 9.7mm July Mean max 33.1 Mean min 22.8 Rain 4.2mm August Mean max 32.8 Mean min 22.5 Rain 4.6mm September Mean max 29.2 Mean min 19.4 Rain 11.9mm October Mean max 23.5 Mean min 15.1 Rain 47.7mm November Mean max 18.1 Mean min 11.2 Rain 50.6mm December Mean max 14.4 Mean min 8.2 Rain 66.6mm

Ok, I have now added the table with the updated values for temperature for the Thissio station which is the most representative and historical station of Athens

You are not forced to enter rain. If you do not like rain and temperature to refer to different time intervals, you can simply drop the line of rain like here:

Climate data for National Observatory of Athens (Thissio), 107 m asl (1971-2000)
Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Average high °C (°F)	13.0 (55.4)	13.7 (56.7)	16.1 (61.0)	20.5 (68.9)	25.8 (78.4)	30.6 (87.1)	33.1 (91.6)	32.8 (91.0)	29.2 (84.6)	23.5 (74.3)	18.1 (64.6)	14.4 (57.9)	22.57 (72.62)
Average low °C (°F)	6.7 (44.1)	6.8 (44.2)	8.2 (46.8)	11.6 (52.9)	16.0 (60.8)	20.4 (68.7)	22.8 (73.0)	22.5 (72.5)	19.4 (66.9)	15.1 (59.2)	11.2 (52.2)	8.2 (46.8)	14.08 (57.34)
Source: National Observatory of Athens

I do not know how to avoid that the system reports the second unuseful and unsignificant decimal for the yearly average, perhaps there is no way to remove it.

But please notice that the sources should preferably be specified with detail, for instance by adding a footnote indicating the URL of all the bulletins where the single monthly averages '71-2000 have been retrieved. In practice collecting figures from different publications is original research, but if they can promply verify without complex or long operations, I believe that most editors will accept it. --Amending (talk) 08:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok,lets accept your proposal.You can add it if you want

Actually now that I am looking at it better the monthly bulletins of 2010 refer to the rain means of 1961-1990 so that would not constitute original research.You can check the monthly bulletins for verification

Perhaps it is not very clear that it is not others that must show that the sources are not goot. It is who claims things that must show as clearly as s/he can that the sources really say that. So if one of the climatic bulletins reports those means, its URL should be supplied. --Amending (talk) 08:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The url is provided above.As also instructions on what you need to do to check the bulletins.The bulletins refer to 1971-2000 temperature and 1961-1990 rain.So by no means original research!Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 08:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Omonoia Photo

I just added a photo of Omonoia Square and then a user reverted and added another photo, which apart that is ugly, it doesnt even show the Square but the surrounding buildings. More than half of the image shows the surrounding buildings, and one cannot even tell this is a square actually just by looking the photo. It could very well be a pavement. Because of that I will change the photo to a night shot that shows the complete square (so that the reader understand what we are talking about), unless some other user has a better photo that shows a SQUARE and not surrounding buildings with some pavement.Thanks.Nochoje (talk) 20:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

You switched the pictures while reverting. I reverted File:Athens_Omonoia_square_NW_view.jpg which is an ugly picture with very limited perspective and worse than the picture it was replacing. Then in your revert you replaced it with another picture of Image:Omonoia-Athens4.jpg of Omonoia by night without saying so in your edit summary. Then you come here and complain. Next time use the edit summary and explain what you are doing clearly. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Not again with the lousy pictures...Athenean (talk) 21:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Athenean. There were some more pics added by this user, in addition to the Omonoia picture. I haven't checked them for quality. If you think they are not up to par please feel free to remove them. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, this time I think the new Omonoia pic is better than the old one. The others seem ok too. Athenean (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I removed the Lycabbetus picture because it was at night and close to another night picture. The daylight Lycabettus is brighter and has better perspective IMO. If you don't think so please undo. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:34, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Athens GaWC rank

Athens is listed as a Beta+ world city (http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2010t.html) as seen in the source listed in the article, which incorrectly states it is an Alpha 'world city'. My edit was disputed as I did not provide citation, however the one present for 'alpha world city' [7] is clearly evidence to the contrary.

HS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.184.255.92 (talk) 22:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Y Done Fixed. Thanks for the heads up HS. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I feel this whole Alpha Beta world city is a total crock. Who is GaWC anyway, and why should we consider them a reliable source and their ranking sufficiently important to insert it in the lede of the article? Athenean (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Y Done Removed. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)