Talk:Australia

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Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2014[edit]

Please capitalise the word 'indigenous' in the link to the article regarding Indigenous Australians in the second paragraph of this article. It is conventional and a sign of respect to capitalise the words Indigenous and Aboriginal when referring to the Aboriginal peoples of Australia.

See:

- "The 'I' in 'Indigenous' is capitalised when referring specifically to Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. The lower case 'i' for 'indigenous' is only used when referring to people originating in more than one region or country such as the Pacific region, Asiatic region, Canada or New Zealand."[1]

- "Always capitalise ‘Indigenous’ and ‘Aboriginal’ when you’re referring to Australian Aboriginals, but not when you are referring generally to the original inhabitants of other continents."[2]

I'd also like to note that the first sentence of the second paragraph, which suggests that Indigenous Australians have inhabited Australia for at least 40 000 years prior to British settlement (which IS referenced, but when reading the reference the date suggested is 50 000 years) is based on outdated data. Due to ongoing dating of artifacts and DNA research over the last twenty years, this number has been revised up by 20 000 years (meaning it is now generally accepted knowledge that Aboriginals have inhabited Australia for at least 60 000 years, not 40 000). I grant that this is a contentious issue, but it is pretty much now widely accepted that 60 000 years is a conservative estimate. At the very least you could correct this statement to "40-60 000 years".

See:

- "Archaeological investigations in the northwest of Australia suggest that Indigenous people may have occupied Australia for at least 60,000 years."[3]

- "Australia's Aboriginal people, the original inhabitants of the Australian continent, arrived at least 60,000 years ago."[4]

- Doyouthink (talk) 10:13, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

References
  • X mark.svg Not done - Wikipedia has its own style guide regarding capitalisation, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters, and capitalisation of "indigenous" is not compliant with that guide. Regarding the 40,000-60,000 year figures, note that http://australianmuseum.net.au/Indigenous-Australia-Cultural-Heritage only says "may have". This is not an absolute. dfat.gov.au is not an archeological site and provides no source, so the 60,000 year claim there is not authoritative. The "40,000+" figure is widely accepted but there is no definitive evidence for either 50,000 or 60,000 years. Until such time as we have stronger sources for either, "at least 40 000 years" is the most neutral way of indicating the time period. Note that the source that you claim says 50,000 talks about a genetic date from a sample recovered 100 years ago. It further states "Genetic dates are based on a mixture of statistics and best guesses" followed by "but the split times calculated by the Danish team are compatible with the more reliable archaeological dates, which record the earliest known human presence in Australia at 44,000 years ago." --AussieLegend () 11:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree that indigenous should not be capitalised, but point out that Indigenous Australians capitalises the word throughout. Should we uncapitalise all of those instances also? (And probably many other instances, eg in Australia#History and History of Australia.) Mitch Ames (talk) 13:30, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why it should be capitalised unless it's the first word in a sentence. --AussieLegend () 13:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
My understanding is that both "Aboriginal" and "Indigenous" when referring to the early human inhabitants of Australia are part of a proper noun, so "Indigenous Australians" and "Australian Aboriginals" should both be capitalized as such under Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters. Myk (talk) 16:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

despite it increases[edit]

This recent addition to Australia#Economy doesn't parse correctly:

According to the Graduate Careers Survey, full-time employment for newly qualified professionals from various occupations has declined since 2011 despite it increases for graduates three years after graduation.

Should it be "despite increases for graduates" or "despite it's increases for graduates"? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

_________

How about saying it like this :

According to the Graduate Careers Survey, full-time employment for newly qualified professionals from various occupations has declined since 2011 but instead it increases for graduates three years after graduation.

? Does that sound better? Abcdudtc (talk) 17:29, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
The word "instead" implies that the two might be mutually exclusive, but they are probably not. This would be better:

According to the Graduate Careers Survey, full-time employment for newly qualified professionals from various occupations has declined since 2011 but it increases for graduates three years after graduation.

Mitch Ames (talk) 03:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I question the value of this material in such a high-level article. It would be better to note that unemployment, including youth unemployment, has increased over recent years rather than getting into the weeds by discussing employment for university graduates (a group who generally do pretty well compared to other people their age as a result of their skills) Nick-D (talk) 05:10, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I did that change in the article. I changed "despite" for "but". Abcdudtc (talk) 10:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I currently have no opinion about whether the material should be included in the article, only that (if it is included) it should be grammatically and factually correct. It needs to be corrected or removed, but I don't care which. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
"I question the value of this material in such a high-level article.", "rather than getting into the weeds by discussing employment for university graduates", yes that sounds reasonable. But even taking that into consideration, I still think there is value in this material, because the professional occupations to which this happens are many and because of the reactions to it, for example the Australian Dental Associations requesting an end to the work rights of international students. [1] I guess it could be reduced to a few words. I will think more about it.Abcdudtc (talk) 10:45, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
References
That might be relevant in an article on current issues, but this is a very high level article about the nation of Australia. I wouldn't read too much into the reactions of professional associations: their role is to protect the interests of their members, and not to take a broader view, and they have a natural inclination towards keeping the supply of workers in the professions they represent low (in order to protect members' jobs and boost their wages). Nick-D (talk) 11:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
You say "I wouldn't read too much into the reactions of professional associations: their role is to protect the interests of their members", does that mean that the right thing to do is not listen to what they say? such is what it would make the government perfectly happy, the government only wants people to hear what it says and be wary of the opinions of others. There's none so blind as he who will not see. I do not agree with that, I think we should read what they say and see what FACTS they say, for example, they say that the Graduate Careers Survey shows that graduates have difficulty finding employment and that is true, it can be seen for example in this picture : https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/10342275/5802050/50e2b0e6-a045-11e4-9ad2-075c9bfa1c5a.png (You see the sudden fall in employment in 2011 and has remained in decline) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abcdudtc (talkcontribs) 04:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Social liberalism[edit]

The user Andreas11213 keeps restoring "social liberalism" to the section about Victoria and other states in place of "progressive". I am utterly lost. What has social liberalism got to do with this? The section says certain states are "comparatively conservative"; surely then the remaining states are "comparatively progressive" not "socially liberal". Social liberalism can be both conservative (when contrasted with social democracy) and progressive (when contrasted with classical liberalism). Moreover, as far as I can see none of the references cited even mention social liberalism. So what is going on here? Colonial Overlord (talk) 03:24, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not Andreas11213 that "keeps restoring" it. That is what it originally said. it is you who "keep changing" it when there is obviously no consensus. "Progressivism" is a loaded term which depends on what the speaker finds to be progressive - which could be many things. Here is the intro sentence from the wiki "Progressivism": "Progressivism is a broad philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition." I don't know about you, but I don't think there are many political parties (certainly in Australia) on the left or right who don't think they are trying to advance economic development, science and technology, social organisation and the human condition. It is subjective claptrap. It is also not an academic term. The terms used by political scientists for the ideology espoused by mainstream left of centre parties in Australia today are "social liberalism" and "social democracy" (the latter is further to the left than the former). "Progressivism" is not a rigorous term and is not used by political scientists in Australia to describe any major ideology present in this country.--Saruman-the-white (talk) 00:52, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. If you look at the sources cited for that claim, most say "progressive", none say "socially liberal" so that's the word we should use. I don't agree with what you say at all: the word progressive is consistently used as the opposite of conservative, meaning left of centre. That is its widely accepted political meaning. Social liberalism, on the other hand, does not equate to left wing. Even the most conservative mainstream politician is a social liberal if they support any kind of social safety net whatsoever. Colonial Overlord (talk) 08:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Consistently used to mean that by a very clear subset of people. Your average blue collar worker in a working class suburb for example, who generally votes Labor, would never describe themselves as "progressive". In fact, they'd likely call a person so describing themselves a "wanker". Aside from that such people would have some very un "progressive" views on certain topics. Greens-voting 19 year olds studying arts/journalism and living in Surrey Hills/Fitzroy/West End would be your best bet for people who would self describe as progressive with a straight face. If you read the article for social liberalism, you will find that it is not so that anybody supporting the barest safety net is immediately a social liberal. In fact, even most classical liberals, minarchist libertarians, etc support basic safety nets. Further, if you read the article on "progressivism" you will find that it was a particular American political movement in the early 20th century which did not occur in Australia. --Saruman-the-white (talk) 00:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Even if all your points are true you haven't addressed the most important thing I said: the sources cited use the word progressive ("Victoria not likely to lose its mantle as the state most progressive", "the progressive southern states of Victoria, South Australia and "Tasmania) or "left-leaning" with no mention of "social liberalism" in any of them. Unless these articles are written by 19 year old arts students, it seems the term is more widespread than you make out. If you asked people on the street what the opposite of conservative is, the answers you'd get would be "progressive", "left-wing", "socialist", "social democratic" but probably not "social liberalism". The latter term doesn't even refer to the entire left, only a very moderate part of it: the Greens are not liberals of any kind and neither are the more left wing elements of Labor. So its clear that social liberalism is inappropriate ( not to mention that "socially liberal" usually means liberal on social issues like euthanasia, not the ideology of social liberalism). If you object to "progressive" could we say "left-wing" or "left of centre"? Colonial Overlord (talk) 02:44, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Left wing or left of centre sure. That is a more unambiguous term.

Image conflict[edit]

Image one
Image two (proposed replacement)

Does anyone else think that image two best represents the "beach being an integral part of the Australian identity", because it depicts beach goers, sun baking, swimming etc. It's a typical summer scene. In short, I think it's a clearer and more lively depiction of summer/beach life within Australia. The first image sort of looks like the beach is a bit of an uninhabited, uninviting void until it's enlarged. The people are really not as visible as they are in the first image I am proposing. I thought this would be clear to people, but one editor doesn't seem to agree and prefers image one... What does everyone else think? Ashton 29 (talk) 09:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I prefer image 1. It's more elegant in composition, with a sense of spaciousness - not uninviting at all. I find image 2's composition messy, crowded, and not very inviting (foreshortening gives an impression of standing room only?). Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 09:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm not a photographer but image 2 doesn't look professional. Featured articles deserve better. The line about the beach/Australian identity (which I added years ago) is more to do with culture than demographics, so I'm not sure if it really belongs here. Regardless it's not the point worthy of illustration. Image 1 captures Australia's great demographic fact: that it is an immense, sparsely populated land, and the majority of its inhabitants reside in cities which cling to the coastline. - HappyWaldo (talk) 10:17, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with HappyWaldo: both are fine photos which do a good job of illustrating this topic, but option 2 is a bit cluttered and the colours look slightly oversaturated. Nick-D (talk) 11:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree that image 2 isn't as professional as image 1 but, while image 1 is a great representation of how Gold Coast architecture extends right up to the beach, it draws focus away from "the beach being an integral part of the Australian identity". The people in the photo seem less interested in swimming and other more typical beach activities, and more interested in going for a walk on what isn't a very good beach day. I don't see an issue with "an impression of standing room only" because that's pretty much integral with the beach. I think image 2 better illustrates what we're trying to present. I actually think this image of a more iconic beach is better than image 1. --AussieLegend () 11:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Bondi is more iconic (I'm not sure the image you propose is an improvement), but Sydney is already represented in the infobox at the bottom of the demographics section (and in the religion and education sections). The Gold Coast brings greater diversity and its skyline nails the coastal/urban aspect of Australian life. Like I said above, Australian beach culture (and the recreational activities it encompasses) should be covered in the culture section. - HappyWaldo (talk) 11:55, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I can't agree that the Gold Coast "skyline nails the coastal/urban aspect of Australian life". The Gold Coast skyline, with tall buildings almost right on the beach, is not at all typical of the rest of Australia. Bondi is far more typical. --AussieLegend () 12:13, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant visually it's perhaps the most pronounced example. There's no mistaking that it depicts a significant amount of people living in a coastal area. - HappyWaldo (talk) 12:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Gold Coast summer, Burleigh Heads Beach.jpg, on the other hand, clearly depicts a significant amount of people on the beach. I believe the point of the image was to show the beach (not high-rise buildings on a coastal area) as an integral part of the Australian identity. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
But beach culture is irrelevant to this section, and the Australia article, by dint of its broadness, should show a wide range of places, not just Sydney/the capitals. The Gold Coast perfectly illustrates the point worth illustrating here: Australia's population is highly urbanised and largely coastal. Why Image 1? Because it's better. - HappyWaldo (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
As I said, the Gold Coast high-rises so close to the beach are not at all typical of Australia and image 1 focuses far too much on the buildings. Image 2 focuses less on the buildings and more on the people's relationship with the beach. File:Bondi Beach 4.jpg better demonstrates the sort of architecture we see throughout the rest of the country, as well as demonstrating the the people's relationship. Even File:Barbeach.JPG does a better job than image 1. If you want to demonstrate how our cities hug the coast and not include the people, File:Newcastle's East End.jpg does that. If it's a choice between just the two images shown here, image 2 is a much better, all-round image than image 1. --AussieLegend () 13:43, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
"File:Bondi Beach 4.jpg better demonstrates the sort of architecture we see throughout the rest of the country, as well as demonstrating the the people's relationship." Too much Sydney. "Even File:Barbeach.JPG does a better job than image 1." That's a crappy image. "If you want to demonstrate how our cities hug the coast and not include the people, File:Newcastle's East End.jpg does that" Not as stunning visually. Also I don't not want people in the image, but it's incidental. This is the portion of the caption that needs illustrating: "Nearly three quarters of Australians live in metropolitan cities and coastal areas." The Gold Coast skyline is emphatically metropolitan, the expansive beach with rolling waves is emphatically coastal. It's the Ned Kelly's helmet of urban/coastal Australia (reference to another image dispute, see edit history). Conversely, the sprinkling of people on the beach in image 1 captures something of Australia's roominess (also covered in demographics section... admittedly that's a pretty far reach, but worth a try). - HappyWaldo (talk) 14:51, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
We don't necessarily choose the best quality image, or the most diverse image, or the most stunning, we choose the image that best fits the purpose. That an image may be from Sydney doesn't exclude it just because there are already several Sydney images. If the image is the best for the job then use it regardless of location. As for moving the statement to the sport section, that seems a bit of a dummy-spit. Most people go to the beach for recreation, not sport. --AussieLegend () 15:11, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
The sports section needs an overhaul anyway, with recreation integrated. "we choose the image that best fits the purpose" Agreed. - HappyWaldo (talk) 15:25, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Image one only because....image 2 depicts one or more identifiable persons. The right of an individual to control the use of their depiction is called personality rights. To re-use this work you may need those depicted to waive their personality rights (also called granting consent) more info here . -- Moxy (talk) 15:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
    • the subject's consent is not usually needed for publishing a straightforward photograph of an identifiable individual taken in a public place.. Also the Commons community does not normally require that an identifiable subject of a photograph taken in a public place has consented to the image being taken or uploaded. This is so whether the image is of a famous personality or of an unknown individual.. The caption for File:Five-string bass.jpg, which is used in that guideline, is No consent was required for this shot as it was taken in a public place. --AussieLegend () 16:48, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with AussieLegend. The Bondi Beach image he refers to is an excellent example of a typical Australian beach and architecture, as well as aptly demonstrating the close relationship of Australian people with the beach. The Gold Coast images (both 1 and 2) just show a heavily over-populated tourism area with a very large number of high-rise buildings. To show just a Gold Coast image, to represent Australian beaches in general, gives international readers of this article the wrong impression. Just my two cents worth. Figaro (talk) 15:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
"The Gold Coast images (both 1 and 2) just show a heavily over-populated tourism area" Bondi? "To show just a Gold Coast image, to represent Australian beaches in general, gives international readers of this article the wrong impression." The aim is not to "represent Australian beaches in general" but to illustrate "cosmopolitan" and "coastal" Australia. International readers who are switched on and peruse more than the top of the demographics section will see that Australians live in a diverse range of places. The "typical" Australian beach/city scene doesn't really exist, there's too much variety. There isn't anything like Bondi in Perth. Melbourne beach scenes are again completely different etc. - HappyWaldo (talk) 19:55, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Granted, I haven't been to Tasmania since the '70s, but my experience of all of the other places in Australia that I have been since then is that, even if we accept HappyWaldo's argument that "The 'typical' Australian beach/city scene doesn't really exist", there are still a lot of similarities between the "beach/city scenes" around the country, but the scene at the Gold Coast, or at least that which we see in image 1 & 2 is completely different to all of the others, including Perth, so it doesn't represent the vast majority of the country. --AussieLegend () 13:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

But just because Bondi is the most internationally recognisable beach, doesn't mean it's the beach that needs to be illustrated. The Gold Coast beaches are a better representation, I think that's pretty clear. The context also needs to be considered, for example, the caption says "A vast majority of Australian's live in coastal regions". This is why the inclusion or view of the skyline was integral to the photo. It depicts the beach vs. urban juxtaposition. As far as which image is better goes, the points that people raised are valid and identical to my own:
  • A) Image one is more about a skyline or a city and less about a beach/association with beach identity.
  • B) Image two depicts both in equal proportion. There is life, there is participation in beach culture and there is the city to represent the coastal urbanisation.
  • C) Aesthetics or structure are somewhat irrelevant when the image corresponds to the text or caption. Ashton 29 (talk) 09:37, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
"The Gold Coast beaches are a better representation, I think that's pretty clear" - No, it's not clear. Why are Gold Coast beaches a better representation? Neither of the images represent a typical Australian "beach vs. urban juxtaposition". In most of Australia we live near the beach, not right on it. Population densities drop as you approach the beach, they don't increase exponentially as the images seem to indicate. How many places other than the Gold Coast have high-rise buildings so close to the water? --AussieLegend () 11:05, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
I maintain there isn't a typical Australian beach vs. urban juxtaposition, just varying degrees of development. The Gold Coast is unique, but I think that's its strength. It's a model of coastal urbanisation. Also to your last question, the Gold Coast has company with redevelopment projects like Docklands and the Perth waterfront, and the projected growth of smaller cities along the coast. Come to think of it the Gold Coast isn't that unique. - HappyWaldo (talk) 11:43, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
I've provided links above to several images showing what is a typical beach vs. urban juxtaposition. This is evident in most coastal towns and cities. Typically there may be some high-rise developments with building heights and densities thinning out towards the beach. Often there is a road separating the buildings from the road, and often parks or other grasslands between the road and the beach. File:Bondi Beach 4.jpg and File:Barbeach.JPG are examples of what I've seen in, to name a few places, the Qld Sunshine Coast, most coastal towns in NSW including but not limited to Newcastle, Lake Macquarie, Gosford, Sydney & Wollongong, settlements along the road from from Melbourne down to HMAS Cerberus, Adelaide, Darwin and there are similarities around Fremantle (I haven't spent much time in WA). High-rise buildings onnthe beach are very much a Gold Coast signature, just as the Sydney Opera House on the waterfront is very representative of only Sydney. --AussieLegend () 16:16, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Sport and recreation[edit]

Should the section be "Sport" or "Sport and recreation"? Relevant diffs: [1][2][3].

It seems to me that most of the contents of the section is sport (including skiing); there's very little about other forms of recreation. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

"Skiing is a recreational activity..." I would say most Australians who have skied view it that way. - HappyWaldo (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
As it was, the section was primarily about sport, with nothing about recreation, which is why I moved the content back to the image caption. I still think that the content should be in the caption but HappyWaldo's subsequent edits to the section have added recreational content (skiing is primarily recreational in Australia) and I think it needs to be expanded even further along those lines, including other forms of recreation to balance the content even more. --AussieLegend () 15:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
The section is still primarily about sport. If we want to call it "sport and recreation" we need to add a bit more recreation (other than sport). (Sadly, Recreation in Australia redirects to Sport in Australia. Surely us Aussies have some other leisure pursuits!) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
I remember somebody bringing up the issue of there being no content in Recreation in Australia. It's beyond just being an oversight. Sadly, one of the most common forms of recreation is sitting in traffic jams, then standing in long lines to watch somebody else play sport but there are lots of other things that we do. --AussieLegend () 12:43, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Some ideas: add sentence on the climate being conducive to outdoor recreation and Australia's reputation as a sporty nation (the opening stat could be updated); remove list of "internationally well-known and successful sportspeople" (perhaps a few names can be worked into the prose); mention the historical and cultural significance of cricket as a kind of de facto national sport and Australia's primary summer sport; the divide between the winter football codes of aus rules and league/union, with a nod to the rising popularity of soccer. The last paragraph is pretty decent. - HappyWaldo (talk) 13:06, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese Population[edit]

There is many more Chinese in Australia that stated 4%. If you go to Sydney - there are almost only Chinese. Same Perth. Need to double check your statistics with actual numbers as what is shown now does not make sense.

That's the figure in the Census Nick-D (talk) 11:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I believe it lists the "Asian" (of course mostly Chinese) population as 12%. You may find that if you go to for example, the CBDs of Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne or (Perth?), around 60-70% of people you see are Asian, but then in the suburbs it turns into a minority. If I had to guess, more like 20% Asian but this is what the official figures say (bare in mind they are nearly 5 years old, and won't be replaced until a year after the next census) and it also takes into account rural areas and small cities.--Saruman-the-white (talk) 23:54, 17 April 2015 (UTC)