Talk:Austria in the time of National Socialism

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oops[edit]

I forgot to log in, but the translation was definitely mine... sorry--VeronikaMM (talk) 13:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I’ve added a reference to Keynsian economics. What the British economist Keynes wrote is relevant here.Barbara Shack (talk) 11:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Further additions[edit]

I’ve added material from the German Wikipedia article, Juliputsch. The German text refers to that article.Barbara Shack (talk) 13:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Anhaltelager explains imprisonnment without trial.Barbara Shack (talk) 15:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I’ve added a small amount from the German Wikipedia articles, Staatsrat (Österreich) & Juliabkommen. This shows that the Staatsrat was a Legislative Council.Barbara Shack (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

as long as we are translating the article we should stick to the original. Once we are done I think it makes sense adding stuff from other articles, but it makes it very difficult to proofread for those who agree to do the job.--VeronikaMM (talk) 07:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Category? References? Length?[edit]

I find it somehow hard to understand what this article might have to do with Vergangenheitsbewältigung. Isn't Vergangenheitsbewältigung about Germany and some other countries coming to terms with their Nazi past? I've also taken a look at the German article which seems to be quite long and, correct me if I'm wrong, unfortunately rather unreferenced. I mean there are only like 17 footnotes... How are you translators going to handle this? It could be become a problem leading to someone inserting this: [citation needed] In the introduction to the article we learn that the Nazi reign reign in Austria lasted from 1938 to spring 1945. Yet the first chapters extensively describe the prewar or rather post-war situation after Austria-Hungary had ended and Austria had become an independent republic in 1918. Again I may be wrong, but shouldn't the article rather focus on its actual topic? My impression is that the article wanders from the subject. Maybe some parts could be included elsewhere. There are the following articles: First Austrian Republic, Austrofascism, Anschluss. I must say I wouldn't like the idea of having the exact same or similar content partially repeated with slight differences in ultimately four articles. This would be sort of ridiculous, especially given the fact that up to now there is not a single article extensively depicting Austrian history after WWII. Sorry for bothering you, maybe you're planning to do the translation first, deciding about how to proceed later on. I just thought it would be fair to voice my concerns in a timely manner so that you may consider them. --Catgut (talk) 20:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

thank you for your concern. I understand what you mean. I do have actually a lot of reference (a lot of it is in German, unfortunately) in book form. The article is not ONLY dealing with Austria being part of the Nazi regime, but the sections that are in the course of being translated, also explain to a certain degree how Austria reacted to National Socialism in Germany and groups evolving in the country. If you have an idea how to explain such things without including all that information into the article I am very willing to cut shorter once we are done with the translation. Most of the points included are rather important to understand how things could take its course...
To the category Vergangenheitsbewältigung: It doesn't only mean to come to terms with the Nazi past, but also to lay open the facts and stop trying to hide things that have happened. To a big part in Austria that also means leaving the victim role behind. I think as an Austrian I can see the problems of that every day, and that's why I decided to start with the translation with this article, because I know of a lot of people with Austrian ancestry living abroad who never really found out about those details, which is one of the main reason, why I think there is a point of having this long article...--VeronikaMM (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

I know this might not be the perfect place to add this, but whoever wants to join in translating this article, I think it only makes sense if one person is working on one section at a time, otherwise it gets really confusing. It is a very long article and there is plenty to be translated, so please always start out with a new (sub-)section once you are done with one, not with one, that someone has already started with. I think it also gives a much better flow in reading a section at a time. I know things are going to edited again and again, but several people working on the same part usually doesn't work out too well... Thanks--VeronikaMM (talk) 22:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

"Adolf Hitler und sein Weg zu Großdeutschland"[edit]

This is the title of a series of over 200 photographs produced in 1938, distributed in Austria as a premium with packs of cigarettes shortly after the Anschluss. A commemorative album with companion texts was available for purchase at tobacconists for the token sum of one Reichmark. Subjects of the photos and their brief captions: Nazi party history and major events, its conflicts with the Left in the early decades of the 20th C., and popular support for Adolf Hitler as a leader. My question:

  • Is there an authorized (or accepted, canonical) title for this series in English? (My difficulty is with the word Weg)

Thank you -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, this page translates it "Adolf Hitler and His Path to a Greater Germany," and this one translates it "Adolf Hitler and His Way to Greater Germany". Both seem acceptable translations, though the "path" one sounds a good deal more idiomatic in English to me. I doubt that there's a canonical English translation of this. Deor (talk) 13:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that "path" is the better translation. The word way in English has a broader range of meanings than Weg in German, so using "way" creates a phrase that sounds funny and is ambiguous. Marco polo (talk) 14:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Further difficulty, in light of the above offerings: * Is Großdeutschland to be understood as a proto-geopolitical entity, ideological concept, or what? This pertains to capitalization, indefinite article, and "scare quotes":

  • ...path to a Greater Germany
  • ...path to "Greater Germany"
  • ...path to [the] "Greater Germany" (afterthought)
  • ...?

This is the translation of an archival document, so I'm trying to capture the author/publisher's intent. -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have an article Großdeutschland, and the third paragraph under "History" seems particularly relevant in this context. For myself, I think "to a Greater Germany" sounds better in English, just as we might speak of "the path to a European Union," but I'm not sure I can articulate the reason. Deor (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Very appropriate link – I hadn't thought to look for such a page! The title of the animated map there, _Germany's way to "Greater Germany"_[sic], is suggestive... but indicates no German-language original and may not have been translated accurately. All told, I'm now thinking of a new option (afterthought, above); what do you think? -- Deborahjay (talk) 21:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd go with either "a" or "the" (even though there's no article in the German version) and no quotation marks—I can't see any reason for their use here. Deor (talk) 22:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you view the capitalized adjective in Greater Germany sufficient to indicate that this is a term for a concept (i.e. Großdeutschland in the original)? That aspect was the reason I was inclined to enclose those words in quotation marks. --Deborahjay (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you going to capitalize the translation of the series title headline-style (i.e., like an English title)? If so, I suppose there is some potential ambiguity; but I think the likelihood of misinterpretation is small. In any event, such use of quotation marks would be unusual and might perplex readers more than the version without them. Deor (talk) 23:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It also occurs to me that "the Greater Germany" is somewhat less ambiguous than "a Greater Germany," so you might prefer that. Deor (talk) 23:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I feel rather strongly that there should be no article in the translation (and also no quotation marks). I think that it should be Adolf Hitler and His Path to Greater Germany. Using "a Greater Germany" or "the Greater Germany" frames "Greater Germany" as an ideal rather than as a geographic entity. In fact, Großdeutschland was a geographic entity, a union of Austria and Germany (with Bohemia and other "culturally German" bits thrown in in the Nazi version). Using another historical example, let's say we are talking about the unification of the lands of the South Slavs after World War I. We would refer to a "path to Yugoslavia" rather than a "path to a Yugoslavia" or, odder still, a "path to the Yugoslavia". Yugoslavia is less tricky because it really cannot be construed as an ideal, whereas "path to a greater Germany" can easily be read to mean simply a path to an improved Germany. So I think that the article introduces unnecessary ambiguity. Marco polo (talk) 13:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)