Talk:Automated teller machine
|Automated teller machine was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on June 27, 2004, June 27, 2005, June 27, 2006, June 27, 2007, and June 27, 2008.|
- 1 GA delisted
- 2 What about countries?
- 3 Health card rips off ATM for $100,000
- 4 Simjian invention claim
- 5 Motivation
- 6 Card skimming and duplicating
- 7 Apparent contradiction
- 8 first atm
- 9 Nonsensical claim should be removed
- 10 Image of ATM with person
- 11 Foreign Exchange
- 12 Reverse PIN entry claims
- 13 Early patents
What about countries?
In the list of ATM services around the world I think there should be some possibility of acknowledging easily the service that is used in a certain country.
For example, I would like to know what's the withdrawl limit in ATM in France... But I find no simple way of doing it.
Health card rips off ATM for $100,000
LOL! Here's a source for anyone wanting to expand the Automated teller machine#Security section:
Simjian invention claim
"The first mechanical cash dispenser was developed and built by Luther George Simjian" the text currently claims. However, the source says nothing about a "mechanical cash dispenser",it mentions a "hole-in-the-wall machine that would allow customers to make financial transactions" which could mean anything. It is also obvious that automatic "mechanical cash dispensers" have been around for decades before that time - they are called slot machines. There is nothing in the source to directly suggest that what Simjian invented has anything directly to do with an ATM as we would know it. Meowy 18:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Did Simjian's invention dispense cash?
Ross Anderson's book "Security Engineering," (2d Edition; 2008) on P. 333, in its section on ATMs, attributes the first ATM to inventor Simjian, describing them as "large-scale retail transaction processing systems." Anderson says Citicorp's 1939 model was withdrawn afterwards because the only ones using it were prostitutes and gamblers. He cites the same MIT website as this article.
Though there's no mention of an explicit ability to dispense cash I'd guess prostitutes and gamblers in 1939 were making cash transactions -- and not transferring direct deposit funds into secondary accounts or selling puts.
Also of historical notation, another one of the first ATMs was located in Columbus, Ohio at the Buckeye Federal Savings and Loan Bank on the far east side (Hamilton & Livingston Avenues). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
"The History of the Automated Teller Machine," a website article by Billings Farnsworth, calls Simijian's 1939 ATM "the first mechanical cash dispenser."
Who invented the ATM?
The introduction of this article claims that IBM invented the ATM and it was first put into use in 1972 by Lloyds Bank. Further paragraphs go on to claim multiple inventors at multiple dates, other banks, and patents; the narrative is inconsistent and untrustworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
As stated in the article the IBM 2984 was designed by IBM for Lloyds Bank. It was the first example of modern ATMs because it contained the major features found in ATMs used today. It was connected to a network with two computer centres and a large number of end points. It used "start-stop" protocols. Magnetic cards and PINs could be used at any end point. Each transaction was verified on-line to check the previous overnight balance, a hot card list and the number of withdrawals in the day. It captured transactions on-line for debiting in that days overnight processing. In the 1970s it did not debit the account in real time as stated in the article. The system included proprietary cryptography algorithms. Machines were originally used inside the bank or its lobby and later upgraded for external, "though the wall", 24/7 operation. The IBM 3624 was a standard IBM product and used IBM SNA communication protocols and DES encryption algorithms. Pastera (talk) 13:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Why do banks offer this service? It must cost a fair bit of money to keep them in operation, and I dont believe I've ever paid a penny to use one
- You are lucky. In the United States, most machines apply a surcharge of $1.50 to $3.00 per transactions to users who are not customers of the bank operating the machine. In the right location these machines can be quite profitable to the owner. The bank in turn applies its own additional surcharge. Although it does cost the bank some money, it is also a convenience to its customers so it is part of the bank services included in having an account. Further, it reduces the human labor and rental space that the bank would have to maintain if the customers performed the transactions before a live teller in the branch. - Wikidemon (talk) 09:15, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Bank Tellers are expensive, Machines are cheap. They provide the service so they don't have to employ as many people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Card skimming and duplicating
I think card cloning and card skimming should be mentioned in both this article and Credit card fraud, but there should be a main article for both called something like "Bank card skimming and duplicating". Facts707 (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
The introduction of the article makes an unsourced and unreferenced claim that Scotsman John Shepherd-Barron "invented" the ATM machine in 1967. However, this sentence contradicts and runs contrary to what the history section entails which says that before 1959, Armenian inventor Luther George Simjian invented the first cash dispensing machine. Likewise, an ATM machine was used in Japan even before developments took place in the UK.
I have also found reference from MIT that Simjian may have in fact, evidenced in his 20 or so patents, invented the ATM or "hole in the wall" around 1939 which was much earlier than 1959 (as sourced in the article as it is). 
- And again, Smijian is supported to have invented the ATM machine in 1939 while Shepherd-Barron's came much later in 1967.   Yoganate79 (talk) 22:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, Yoganate79, CNN have just given an answer as to the first use of the ATM and gave three options to the question they had asked, earlier and that is why I came here to check: New York, London and Japan were the options. . They have just given the answer, which is London and it's use in 1967 - and they also spoke of John Shepherd-Barron as the inventer. So, just thought I would add this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 03:04, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- The problems described by Yoganate79 seem to be fixed, so I've removed the tags. —rybec 04:50, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
The June 27 wikipedia page lists the first ATM as the one installed in Enfield Town in 1967, however the page here lists one that was first operated in 1959, in Ohio. Which of the two is correct, or are they different types of ATM machine or whatnot? CybergothiChé word to your mother 01:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
The first "true" ATM, for the reasons stated above was the IBM 2984 developed at IBM Hursley Park for Lloyds Bank in the UK. None of the previous claimants would be recognised as an ATM today because they did not interact with the bank's computer system and only issued fixed amounts of cash, based an a voucher/card which was retained by the machine.
Nonsensical claim should be removed
I feel that this article should get rid of one of the nonsensical statements in it. It says that many banks charge fees for use of ATMs - this is not so, although there are some ATMs that do involve payment of fees, most of those at banks are very good and do not charge money for their use. There have been those that charge money - ATMs charging money are normally at shops. This article could point out that it was not until 1998 that ATMs began to charge money. It could also point out how controversial the concept of an ATM that charges money for its use has been, as any one who ever reads any newspapers will know full well.ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:47, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- I believe you're misunderstanding the statement about fees. When it says that the bank charges fees, this isn't referring to the physical bank branch that an ATM might be within. This is referring to the bank (meaning the company, ie Chase, Citigroup, etc.) charging a fee, regardless of where the ATM is located. As for the other information you want added, please provide reliable sources and someone will probably make an edit. Or you could just add the sourced information to the article yourself, since I'm pretty sure this isn't a protected page. -- Fyrefly (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Image of ATM with person
I think it is misleading to say that when withdrawing money in a different currency, "the money will be converted at an official wholesale exchange rate", although it is probably true to say "ATMs often provide one of the best possible official exchange rates for foreign travellers". As the cited article points out, there will almost always be a flat fee or percentage added. (There's a small number of accounts, at least in the UK, where they do not make any charge). Alternatively, some ATMS will offer to charge you in your own currency, and there will always be a percentage mark-up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 11:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Reverse PIN entry claims
The Security section claims that in some countries entering your PIN backwards sounds an alarm at the police station. Snopes.com claims this urban myth is entirely untrue in the USA (some attempt was made to implement it, and there's a patent, but it's never been done) but this is insufficient to declare that it's not true worldwide. Needs a citation or removal.
I'm not sure just where this should fit in. I invented the idea of an "Access Controller" with a patent applied for in 1962 and granted in 1964. I think it is closer to the ATM machine than L. G. SIMJIAN's one and predates the other patents mentioned. The idea came about because of a problem Shell Oil had with an unattended coin operated gas pump, where the local yobos thought it funny to pump the gas onto the ground and set light to it. I was working for W.S.Atkins and Partners at the time and realized my solution had universal application. The current use of a credit card to buy gas is the original idea.
Brit Pat 959,713 "Access Controller" dated June 1964, applied for Feb 1962. Inventor Adrian Walter Francis Ashfield. Link to first page http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=959713A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=&date=19640603&DB=&&locale=en_EP I think it at least deserves a mention.
W.S.A. never did anything with it (probably forgot they even had it) and as it was assigned to them I had no incentive to follow it up myself. I was paid 10 shillings for it, like all patents.