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Why "Senna" and not "da Silva"?
Why did AS race under his maternal and not his paternal name? This is unusual, isn't it? His rival Nelson Piquet happened to do the same thing but for a reason as the WP article tells. It would be interesting for the reader to learn why Senna did it too. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have seen mentioned in documentaries etc that da Silva is quite frequently found in Brazil and Ayrton chose a more unique name when he began to rise through the racing ladder, having used the da Silva name early in his career. Britmax (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think this is because of the Portuguese and as a consequence of that Brazilian naming customs. In Brazil a child receives two family names at birth. This combination is formed by the first,maternal family names of both parents. In Ayrton's case Senna originates from his maternal grandmother, da Silva from his paternal grandmother. In Portuguese and Brazilian naming customs the maternal family names are the more important ones and are the ones that are passed through many generations. This explains why Ayrton's nephew Bruno's family name is Senna too even though he is the son of Ayrton's sister. By our naming customs Bruno would have received his father's family name only and would be named Bruno Lalli. In reality, by Brazilian naming customs, it is Bruno Senna Lalli with his maternal name being the more important one and by the most commonly used one. Tvx1 (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think you are offering personal guesswork. Go and read the Portuguese name page. This indicates that there is no increased importance placed on either the maternal or paternal name, unlike Spanish naming customs which strongly promote the paternal name, although the most common practice is to simplify the surname string to the last (i.e. paternal) name. However, this is not universal and in practice it is up to the individual as to how they use their surnames on anything other than legal documents. Ayrton Senna da Silva did indeed choose to use "Senna" as it was less common and I assume that Bruno did likewise. He may also have wanted to honour his uncle, with the added benefit that a yellow helmeted "Senna" was a much brighter sponsorship prospect than a "Lalli", but this is the sort of speculation that desperately needs a reliable source attached. Pyrope 19:57, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
- You do realize that Bruno received his family name Senna Lalli well before it was known whether there was any sponsorship prospect in having "another yellow-helmeted Senna", do you?. Bruno was even born before his uncle even took part in his first Grand Prix. He was named Senna Lalli, and not da Silva Pereira, in accordance with Brazilian naming customs. Likewise Ayrton was named Senna da Silva and not da Silva Guirado. Tvx1 (talk) 21:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
I have been trying to improve the Formula One records section.
The appointments I have made (straigh wins/same gp; straight poles/same gp; seasons leading pole) have all been accepted. Great.
I created another section then, by mentioning the records he owned when he died - and they have been beaten through time, most by Schumacher, some by Vettel. Great.
My appointments have been first accepeted, but then three of them were removed:
Kms Led; Front Row Starts and Pole/Win at same GP.
Why have they been removed? Aren't they important? the "owner" of the article thinks he wasn't the owner up to 2000s?
Why to mention 5 records and leave 3 of them off?
I also suggested the record of wins at street circuits. Removed as well.
First, the editor considered that Spa (!) was a street circuit.
In this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_circuits) there is the list of circuits. Spa not there. nor Nurburgring.
Senna won 15 races: 6 Monaco, 5 USA (Detroit/Phoenix), 2 Australia, 2 Canada.
Schumacher, in 2004, got this 16th victory (7 Canada, 5 Monaco, 4 Melbourne). So, Senna owned this record for more than a decade.
I made a third suggestion, that is quoting the records he owned during his lifetime and got it broken still alive:
Mostly, the records set for a season(wins, poles, laps and kms led) in 1988 and also wins from the start of a season (1991). These records were all broken by Mansell in 1992, and some of them have been improved by Schumacher (laps/Kms led in 1994, 2002 and 2004; wins in 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2004) and Vettel (laps/Kms led, wins and poles in 2011). Why not to mention?
- Spa is there. It was a street circuit, but now is no longer a street circuit as it is now closed to the public but for most of its life it was not. The Nurburgring has never been a street circuit and I did not say that it was. But then again you also said Adelaide was not a street circuit so you appear to have a skewed view on the subject. However as you've had to research the topic it suggests you've researched and calculated the record yourself. That makes it original research which is against Wikipedia guidelines. Wikipedia is not to be used for records you have made up yourself.
- If it IS an actual record - and this goes for all such records you've been trying to add - you should be able to find a reference to these records in a notable source in the real world where these records are refered to (per WP:Notability). --Falcadore (talk) 11:45, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:12, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Sources for records
Why have you deleted the records of Kms, front row and pole win?
Front Row Starts: http://statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/divers/premiere-ligne.aspx KMs led: http://statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/entete/kms.aspx Pole and Win: http://statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/divers/pole-victoire.aspx
And why have you avoided the mentioning of the records of a season?
More references on records: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records#Most_consecutive_wins_from_first_race_of_season http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/10/sports/auto-racing-schumacher-wins-and-equals-mansell.html
Did I make that up?
As for season records: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records#Most_wins_in_a_season http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records#Most_pole_positions_in_a_season
Senna's mark is the oldest, so, it became a record when?
- The problem is partly in the sourcing but also in the sheer triviality of the statistics you have added. At some point working backwards from "this driver won the championship" to "this driver had egg and chips for breakfast on the 12th of May 1974" the information simply becomes too mundane to include in a general encyclopedia. The point at which this occurs is determined by discussion on the talk page of the article concerned, and the talk page of any project with an interest. Britmax (talk) 13:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Once you guys decided that "this driver had egg and chips for breakfast on the 12th of May 1974", I suggest that you delete all the mentionings for previous records hel by Senna, once they are now meaningless.
Why did you decide to keep laps, gps led and poles and delete front row, kms led and pole-win?
either you delete all, or you keep the eight of them.
- The options are not all or nothing, and neither you nor I or any other single editor is the judge of where the line between trivial and important falls. The statistics kept are deemed to be significant enough for the articles and the others not. Britmax (talk) 14:18, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- Are these records in regular use or obscure? What do those records suggest that the previous record do not? Does understaning that Senna led more km (not Kms) that anyone demonstrate any unique ability of Senna, or is the amount of kilometres led actually a meaningless statistic as Formula One success is not measured in kilometres. When careers are summarised they frequent mention the number of championships and the number of races won, but how many times do you see it mentioned how many kilometres a driver has led over his career? Is in an important statistic? Commonly referred to? Frequently mentioned?
- You do know its a highly inaccurate figure anyway? It's calculated on the basis of the number of times a driver crosses the line leading the race and the length of the circuit. It does not take into account where a driver takes the lead. At a circuit like the Nurburgring that's a plus or minus of over 22 kilometres for each lead change. It says Alberto Ascari lead the 1953 German Grand Prix for 319 kilometres, but it could have been just 275 km or as much as 363 km. Is it really worth recording a statistic that nobody ever uses with such a high level of inaccuracy? --Falcadore (talk) 14:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Mr. falcadore: ok. great statement.
Thanks for your arrogance again.
Pole & Win: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records#Pole_.26_win_in_same_race http://statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/divers/pole-victoire.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia can't be used as its own source, surely you understand that? I again ask you to read WP:GNG.
- Do you have anything other than a specialist statistics website that demonstrates these are regularly used statistics? Is Senna ever described in news reports as the greatest ever achiever of front row starts? In the same way that he's described as a triple world champion? --Falcadore (talk) 19:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is a general interest encyclopedia, not a racing stats site. By giving equal billing to desperately trivial and (in some cases) erroneous "statistics" you serve to belittle the significance of those that actually mean something and are widely used to judge the relative merits of drivers. An awful lot of data is collected about drivers, cars and teams in F1 and you could juggle these in any way you liked and present them as facts, but it doesn't mean they are significant. If the only source you can find for a statistic is a specialist statistics site then it probably isn't important when considering his career in, what should be, an article limited to about 100kb in size. Pyrope 19:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I noticed a huge mistake in Ayrton Senna article: the cropped image of "Ayrton Senna" is actually Alain Prost! You can see Senna on the left when you open the whole picture of the three men on the podium. Can this be fixed quickly, thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)