Talk:Ayurveda

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Can you add a new section on here called (Ayurveda meets Nanotechnology)[edit]

"Two India-born scientists have embarked on a new fundamental shift in cancer therapy with no side effects, radiation and chemotherapy by using several of the anicent Ayurvedic concoctions (native to india) and nanotechnology. Pharmaceuticals Ltd has explianed the process of which The nanoparticles will be crushed to about one thousandth of the width of human hair then injected into the body where they bind to the surface of cancer cells. Being metal and mildly radioactive, they slowly burn the offending cells to extinction.[1] http://www.lef.org/news/lefdailynews?NewsID=1147792.236.96.38 (talk) 08:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

I am Not happy with The information from (Efficacy) section on this page taking words out of context from cancer reserach page[edit]

Who ever created The (Efficacy) section on here is taking words out of content from the cancer research page, The cancer research page has stated that it has shown possitive effects and even scientist in america have tested some of the compounds while stating possitive to slowing down cancer, The Efficacy section needs total editing if you wish to keep it!

"More than 200 herbs and plants are used in Ayurvedic medicine. Some early laboratory and animal research suggests that compounds taken from traditional Ayurvedic medicines may be able to slow the growth of cancer in animals. Although this early research looks promising, there is no evidence that Ayurvedic herbal medicines can prevent, treat or cure cancer in humans. We won't really know whether Ayurvedic medicine is helpful in treating cancer until large randomised clinical trials have been carried out."

"Research is looking into whether some herbs or plant treatments used in Ayurvedic medicine could help to prevent or treat cancer.But we don't know much about some of the treatments that are part of Ayurvedic medicine, such as special diets and herbal remedies. These treatments could be harmful to your health or interfere with your conventional treatment"

"Research has found that some aspects of Ayurvedic medicine can help to relieve cancer related symptoms and improve quality of life"

Withaferin A

In America in 2011 researchers took a compound called Withaferin A (WA) from the Ayurvedic medicinal plant Withania somnifera. They found that in the laboratory Withaferin A stopped the growth of some types of breast cancer cells. It also stopped the growth of breast cancer in mice. Several other studies support these findings.

Sanjeevani

An Indian study in 2011 looked at selaginella bryopteris, a traditional Indian herb referred to as Sanjeevani. It found that compounds taken from the herb stopped the growth of cancer cells in the laboratory. The compound also reduced the development of skin tumours in mice.

Indian frankincense

A US research study also in 2011 looked at acetyl-11-keto-beta-boswellic acid (AKBA) taken from the gum resin of the boswellia serrata known as salai guggal or Indian frankincense. Traditionally, this substance has been used in Ayurvedic medicine to treat inflammatory conditions. The researchers found that AKBA slowed the growth of bowel cancers in mice and made the cancer less likely to spread.

Mangosteen

The mangosteen fruit has a long history of medicinal use in Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine. Recently, the compound alpha mangostin taken from the outside layer of the fruit was shown to kill various types of cancer cells in laboratory studies. This led Japanese researchers to test alpha mangostin in mice. The substance slowed the growth of breast cancer in mice and it was much less likely to spread to the lymph nodes.

Pomegranate

Pomegranate (Punica granatum) is seen as a sacred fruit in some world religions. Many cultures and systems of medicine, including Ayurvedic medicine, have used it for various health problems. Early research in the laboratory seems to show that pomegranate extracts may have anti cancer properties against prostate, bowel and liver cancer. But there are no studies so far looking at the use of pomegranate in humans.

MAK-4 and MAK-5

Some laboratory studies have looked at Ayurvedic herbal remedies called MAK-4 and MAK-5. The remedies seemed to show some activity in controlling tumours in rats and cancer cells in lab dishes. But there have been no studies in humans.[2]92.236.96.38 (talk) 09:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)caplock

You are not allowed to copy from these websites. See Wikipedia:Copyright infringement. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

But you copied direct from this website to give the following: "There is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic medicine for the treatment of any disease"

just asking myself why you never gave the full verse from that website which was:

"There is no evidence that Ayurvedic herbal medicines can prevent, treat or cure cancer in humans. We won't really know whtether Ayurvedic medicine is helpful in treating cancer until large randomised clinical trials have been carried out"

Just seems like the whole page has been casted into negativity just by that small verse placed at the very top and agian placed at the lower portion of the page, i mean you and i know that the chemicals found in Ayurvedic have shown results in combating cancer, so to have a section at the very top claiming (no scientific evidence for the effectiveness) has been found is a error, as i pointed out it has shown to be effective on cancer cells and that information came from the cancer reserach page.

Also To make this fair as this seems abit one sided, could we not make a page about Toxic metals used for western treatments and link it up with this page?

(toxic Mercury) is used in silver fillings across europe and america, it is one of the most common fillings used by children and adults, The fillings always leak mucury into the body just by chewing or brushing or even by inhaling, when the filling is taken out Mercury gives off vapour which can cause harm.as

Rice grown in the USA has an average "260 ppb of arsenic", also found in american drinking water. just think someone should even up the playing feild abit instead of just hammering the indian text over toxic metals which can be found in over 70 percent of the mouths in america and europe.92.236.96.38 (talk) 11:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)caplock

Copied? No it was rephrased! If you have got many issues to discuss, please discuss 1-by-1. Bladesmulti (talk) 11:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wiki at the top of every search term on google, it is Important that you give a fair write up of both possitive and negative in the section bellow[edit]

"There is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic medicine for the treatment of any disease.Concerns have been raised about Ayurvedic products; U.S. studies showed that up to 20% of Ayurvedic U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through internet contained toxic levels of heavy metals such as lead, mercury and arsenic."f

The bjp Of india asks If you can write the details on this page of the product used in the american studies, they wish to know what you mean by "Ayurvedic products" as this is too vague. Was it about herbal tea? massage oils? Medicine? natrual Food diet? If you do not have the details of products In the ref then please remove it and replace it with a more detailed information.

Avurveda is a blanket term for a wide variety of treatments, Thank you http://www.hindustantimes.com/lifestyle/wellness/scientists-find-potential-medicine-for-treating-arthritis/article1-1275762.aspx92.236.96.38 (talk) 18:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

Hi. The sentence you quoted is supported by two references; the specific information you're looking for can be found at the cited sources. The lede shouldn't have too much detail, as it's meant to summarize the the article, but more detail can also be found in the Use of toxic metals section near the end of the article. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 18:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Dawn, The refs seem to point out that the use of toxic metals is only used and found in (Rasa Shastra) treatments. Ayurveda has two different ways of treatment..

1. (strict use of Herbs and non metals) 2. (The use of metals with herbs), known as (Rasa Shastra)

The summary should at least give account of the main points such as the type of Ayurveda that blends metals with herbs in the first place, I feel it is very misleading to give a negative summary of Ayurveda without giving the information of Rasa Shastra being the test study of the toxins, please edit the following as a example to the summary.

"Concerns have been raised about The use of Ayurvedic Products containing rasa shastra teatments; U.S. studies showed that up to 20% of Ayurvedic rasa Shastra Medicines From U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through internet had contained toxic levels of heavy metals such as lead, mercury and arsenic, this is not to be confused with The Strict herbal and non metal treatments of Ayurveda[9][10]" cheers92.236.96.38 (talk) 16:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)caplock

No. The problem is not confined to Rasa Shastra, as is made clear in the body of the article. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 16:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Rasa shastra is the use of mixing metals with herbs/plants, the test found toxic metals mixed with herbs as one of the refs pointed out, the body of the ref talks about the toxics used and gives details on mercury,lead which is from Rasa Shastra as the Rasa Shastra wikipedia page states.

Well i will be placing (Rasa Shastra) in the summary this week, like it or lump i dont really care as the case of metals and herbs in Ayurveda is stated as (Rasa Shastra).

I will not add the following "this is not to be confused with The Strict herbal and non metal" but i am going to add (Rasa Shastra)Thank you and good day92.236.96.38 (talk) 21:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

Eight components of Ayurveda[edit]

Dominus Vobisdu, You should know that every single citation that has been added to Ayurveda#Eight_components_of_Ayurveda cites reliable medical citation, falling well under Wikipedia:MEDRS, that is:- Literature reviews or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognised expert bodies.

Before making removal of longstanding, and highly commonly accepted content, you should consider analyzing every citation, that you have considered to be against Wikipedia:MEDRS. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Roxy the dog How about [1] - [2]. Information seems to be common, and non-disputed. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
e/c none of those comply. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 03:59, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.lef.org/news/lefdailynews?NewsID=11477
  2. ^ http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancers-in-general/treatment/complementary-alternative/therapies/ayurvedic-medicine
I cannot see any reason to remove, since each of these sources falls under the Wikipedia:MEDRS. I cannot believe that you can seriously reject ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ as reliable source for meds, it has been used not only on other pages but also this page. Can you explain a bit more? Bladesmulti (talk) 04:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Nope. No way, no how. To make extraordinary assertions like this, you will need heavy-duty MEDRS sources stating that the predominant view among experts in real medicine is that this pseudoscientific claptrap can be compared to real medical specialties. And that just ain't gonna happen because most real physicians and scientists would vomit at the mere thought. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 04:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov is well enough for sourcing the whole above. Can you explain how it is not a heavy duty MEDRS ? Or you can cite even a single scientist who consider these as pseudoscientific?Bladesmulti (talk) 04:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Because it does not state that the predominant view among experts in real medicine is that this pseudoscientific claptrap can be compared to real medical specialties, as I said above.And the burden is on YOU, not on me. You're the one making extraordinary claims. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 04:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
I am not, it is ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Are you saying that source has to explicitly state that it is predominant view among experts? Since it remains non-disputed, considerably cited by multiple MedRS, how will you justify? Bladesmulti (talk) 04:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Lets see, I cited Encyclopaedia Of Indian Medicine it has been also considered by http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7271/ the author, Ramachandra S.K. Rao had his journals published in ncbi.nlm.nih.gov(there are many, this is just 1 example). Do I have to explain each source now? Though these are enough. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Your lack of understanding of what "published" means is disappointing. That is not an example of Ramachandra having "his journals" published in ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 23:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Already told by many on Medical wikiproject that it wasn't even required to. So you lacked the understanding of using source from start. Bladesmulti (talk)

Dominus Vobisdu is just doing his daily rounds of puffing up his chest on wikipedia, The information that blade has cited is fine.92.236.96.38 (talk) 22:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

Unexplained removal of terms on eight components[edit]

Roxy the dog, can you inform that how official guidelines disallow you to wikilink the technical terms at least once on the section? Also what's the reason behind removing the terms like Toxicology, Psychiatry, etc.[3] When they are clearly supported by the reliable citations and there's clear consensus to include them. I am doubtful that why you are telling me to follow BRD, when I am already doing with this longstanding content.
Claiming that they are not equivalent is just part of your OR and ultimately because you don't like it. Are you saying that no one has written anything during 1000 BCE because writing of that time wasn't equivalent to current times? It's simply nonsensical, just like you have been told on wikiproject medicine.[4][5] Will you consider providing a policy backed rationale? Bladesmulti (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

fwiw, i support the removal of those wikilinks. ayurveda is prescientific traditional medicine and what it may consider to be "toxicology" is unrelated to contemporary toxicology. the link in the article to a history section in the ophthalmology is appropriate; if there were history sections in toxicology, etc then links to those would be appropriate as well. i don't believe there is a policy that governs this one way or the other; it is just something editors working on the article, need to reason their way to a WP:CONSENSUS on. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog Every article must adhere to basic policies, and none of the wikilinking policy would support the removal. Consensus has been already established for this longstanding content. Everything differs from each other, no subject is 100% identical to other. Every single reliable citation that has been to the article provides those exact terms and meanings.
So you are saying that if they have history section then only it would be appropriate? Sounds resolute, hopefully if you agree with so, I can create for each, ofcourse with the balance and recognition of every other origin. Knowing that very of those categorized articles are short, tag bombed and some of them looks like a list. It maybe easy to expand (e.g. toxicology, read [6] or [7](Ayurvedic origins), [8](ancient Greece), pediatrics[9]).
For now, can you link surgical(#3) to History of surgery#India? Bladesmulti (talk) 03:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
as i wrote above, as far as i can see there is no policy that is definitive on having these specific wikilinks or not having them. If you believe there is a policy or guideline that makes it clear that the wikilinks should be there, please provide it. if you cannot provide one, please acknowledge that this is a discussion about preferences, or perhaps, our best judgement, and stop waving policy around. That would make the discussion more straightforward. btw, is there some reason you are asking me to create the wikilink, instead of doing it yourself? Jytdog (talk) 03:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
There is, no page for specific medical terms though. I thought I am about to cross 3rr as I have been reverted 2 times for that pointed content. I shall wait for few hours, by then I will probably discover other history sections. Bladesmulti (talk)
hmm, are you saying that the average reader doesn't know what "surgery" is? Linking to the main "surgery" article seems rather like WP:OVERLINK to me. Do you see what i mean? linking to History_of_surgery#India makes a bunch more sense, with respect to providing a link to related information elsewhere, per UNDERLINK. does that make sense? i'll implement that one. Jytdog (talk) 03:54, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
How about we remove the edition of the word 'medicine' from this article because this medicine is not equivalent to many of the modern medicines, and some other traditional medicines that came later. Forgetting that they played pioneering role along with other ancient civilizations that directly influenced the modern medical specialties. VandVictory (talk) 02:21, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Equivalents in applicable history or alternative medicine should apply, as with History_of_surgery#India. --Ronz (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

worldwide spread[edit]

In this dif, i removed the content: "In last few decades Ayurveda has spread around the world" which was sourced from:

  1. Healing Your Life: Lessons on the Path of Ayurveda. 2012. p. 7.  Written by Marc Halpern, Published by Lotus Press, year 2012 [10] and
  2. "Textbook of Pharmacognosy and Phytochemistry", Written by Biren Shah, page 455, published by Elsevier, year 2009, [11]

The sentence is nonencylopedic (last decades from what date?) and pretty promotional too. For that kind of claim we need independent sources - something like the WHO. Both sources provided are within the tradition and not the kind of thing we should rely on for a strong claim like this. Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. It's puffery without clearly independent and reliable sources. --Ronz (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Well put Jytdog. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Going forward[edit]

I was asked to take a look at this. Here's what I am proposing from now on.

  • No reverts, at all, for any reason other than obvious vandalism. There should be no reason to do this. WP:0RR.
  • No name-calling, however mild, from either side. No use of terms like "quack" or "censorship", including in edit summaries, or any reference to any editor's supposed affiliations or motivations. There should be no reason for anyone to do this either. Any legitimate complaints about editor behaviour can be referred to me or to WP:AN/I, in that order of preference.
  • Any major changes to the article must be agreed here in talk beforehand. Discussions may be referred to central noticeboards like WP:NPOVN or to WP:RFC, in fact I encourage this.

All participants here are assumed to be aware of these restrictions; I'll ping all the main players as well. Any breaches of these conditions will be met with escalating blocks, without further warnings being given. Anybody unhappy with these proposals is welcome to take it up with me at my talk and if they are unhappy with my response to take it to WP:AN/I. --John (talk) 20:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Thank you; this is excellent. I would love to see this kind of action taken on more articles.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC))
Thanks for proposing this but I think 0RR is not a good idea. I think much better would be that WP:BRD be made mandatory, for some set period of time. We still want to allow editors to be bold or the article will stagnate. So better, would be that bold edits are allowed, and one subsequent revert is allowed and no more, so that the normal WP:BRD cycle unfolds. If the subsequent discussion doesn't achieve consensus, normal dispute resolution processes can unfold. Does that make sense? The rest of it seems fine to me, especially heightened civility requirements. Jytdog (talk) 21:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
See below. It is better not to revert disputed material but to seek a compromise edit. --John (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
I think 1RR would be better. 0RR encourages people to argue over what exactly a "revert" entails. There are some administrators who think that if you edit the work of another in any fashion that can be construed as a revert. To avoid this kind of pointless arguing over semantics, 1RR helps a lot over 0RR. jps (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
i had been willing to lend a hand providing even handed help but these are not conditions i find reasonable. am taking this page off my watchlist. Jytdog (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree I have noticed many editors on this page, do take time to discuss and then make changes. It is important especially on contentious edits be discussed on Talk page and then make the changes. Prodigyhk (talk) 04:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

A concern[edit]

I appreciate that this article would benefit from a firm hand, John, but:

  1. Are you proposing these restrictions, or imposing them? You start by saying it's a proposal, but end by saying that people who break your rules will be blocked.
  2. I'm sure these rules are well-intentioned; but with a zero revert rule, anybody can add problematic or WP:FRINGE content to the article and it'll stay permanently. This restriction seems incompatible with BRD.
  3. Is there some good reason that concerns about behaviour, or about your rules, should be referred to you rather than to the community? The effect of that would be more like ownership. I would prioritise using this talkpage, and community noticeboards, instead of your talkpage.

bobrayner (talk) 21:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

1 Both.
2 No, there are other far more effective measures for dealing with material you are unhappy with than reverting. Read Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary some time.
3 I ask you to raise concerns about editor behaviour with me first as a courtesy but of course you may take them to any other administrator or to the community if you prefer. You may not raise them here though, or in an edit summary. The article improvement discussion needs to happen in a separate place from any editor conduct discussions necessary. Again, this is to facilitate collegial discussion here rather than edit-warring and name-calling. --John (talk) 21:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem with points #2 and #3. I, however, echo Jytdog's and Bobrayner's concern about a zero revert rule. There are times when an edit is clearly not an improvement but not "vandalism", where a "compromise" is NOT ideal. I have also seen some significantly, let's say, "unique" interpretations of what a "revert" is, and am afraid someone could get caught in the wash in what others would consider normal editing. Yobol (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog is correct, toxic, and this imposition does not help. 0RR? What does that actually mean? This is unworkable. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 00:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't have any issue with this proposal, as confirmed above. We have found a way to link the wikilinks and translated medical terms to History sections, it will work and put true edit dispute aside. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Roxy and Yobol, I just don't see how 0RR is workable. I have never, in my 8 years of editing wp, seen such a thing. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
It is because of the edit warring. Except Blades and Roxy, Yobol and little olive oil technically reverted each other 3 times, no discussion can be seen. VandVictory (talk) 11:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Please be careful when making accusations. (Littleolive oil (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC))
I think this is part of the problem, establishing a 0RR which is a blockable, where the definition of "revert" is going to be an issue. I personally feel that the exchange of edits between Littleolive oil and myself was non-contentious editing, and not reverting. I hope John takes the numerous experienced editors' concerns above into consideration, and perhaps establishes a less strict restriction such as 1RR (even contentious article areas which have revert restrictions such as Abortion or Men's Rights Movement have been 1RR, so I'm not sure why the need for 0RR here, nor any track record of 0RR being useful in contentious areas). Yobol (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Commented below. I like the 0RR in part because it prevents peremptory deletions or additions as well as editors adding or removing content while discussion on that very content is ongoing and underway which derails and overrides discussion, and can become or points to ownership issues. However, I do agree with Yobol that our back and forth was not contentious and rather than reverting content was adjusting it. I would give up that privilege if it meant contentious articles/discussions became pleasant with less ownership issues.(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC))

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

  • If followed, John's rules mean that people will be blocked for making edits like this or this or this or this or this or this or this or this, because the rules have been designed without any exemption for reverting the addition of copyvio, or promotional links, or factual errors, or WP:MEDRS failures, or NPOV failures, and so on - and there's plenty of folk out there who are trying to add such things. There's also the content-blanking problem - always the blanking of words critical of Ayurveda but leaving the positive - that's permitted under John's rules but returning to the status quo is a blockable offence.
  • Consequently, these rules make it much harder to maintain or improve article quality; it's a one-way mechanism, a ratchet, which ensures that the article will gradually fill up with that crap. Like Jytdog, I'm walking away from this article until John's rules are either fixed or removed. I already have one stain on my record, for loudly calling out sockpuppetry and canvassing (on wholly unrelated articles); I don't want a second block for trying to fix other policy violations. bobrayner (talk) 17:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Pinging @John:, to see if he will amend his proposal, given the feedback of multiple experienced editors. Yobol (talk) 19:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Partial protection as well?[edit]

Given the problem editing coming from SPA ip's, any attempt at imposing 0/1RR restrictions should include partial page protection as well. --Ronz (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes it should be semi-protected. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Close to source[edit]

Yobol. I think this is one of those times where its hard to not be too close to the source given since we're dealing with only a few words. However, I'd agree the wording was close. I'm not sure the wording in place now is quite accurate to the source but its fine with me, at least, since the meaning is close to accurate. And thanks for a painless back and forth as we searched for the right words.:O)(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC))

Agreed. :) Yobol (talk) 19:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)