Talk:Ayya Vaikundar

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Untitled[edit]

I did my best to combine the articles on Ayya Vaikundar and Vaikunda Avatharam into one article. I am unsure about the name Vaikunda Avatharam, but I think it is synonomous with Ayya Vaikundar. Steven McCrary 18:47, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

There are other inconsistencies here as well, especially with regard to the use of God (Moolamurthi) and Narayani and Krishna Avitar. Also, places are confusing Tharuvai, and Parvatha Ucchi Malai. Steven McCrary 19:26, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I welcome the contributions of others, please take it from here. Thanks. Steven McCrary 19:31, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

From User talk: Stevenwmccrary58:

Ayya[edit]

Thanks for your work. You realised almost every thing rightly and done good. But you mistook a little and I made correction on that. Now please view the article so that you can find out that corrections. - Vaikunda Raja

Vaikunda, the spelling of Veiyelal varies on the page. Steven McCrary 08:16, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Muthukutty and Sampooranathevan[edit]

Vaikunda, The following sentence is confusing: "The first stage of Avatar is the child, born to Ponnu Nadar and Veylal, died immediatly after the birth." The child Muthukutty did not die until he was 22 years old, what "birth" is referred to here? Steven McCrary 08:07, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Vaikunda, in addition, the following statement are confusing for the uninitiated: "Sampooranathevan was granted Heaven. Then the Spirit of Narayana along with the Ultimate Soul or Paramatma incarnated in the body of a human being...." What does "granted Heaven" mean? How is this different from what happened in step 2? Does Paramatma translate to "Ultimate Soul" in English? What is this "Ultimate Soul?" Does it refer to the soul of Sampooranathevan? Steven McCrary 08:16, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

I think all about Vaikundar is confusing Steven. Let me try to clear it. First of all keep in mind the three facts, the Spirit, the Soul and the Body. Ayya Vikundar is a combination of the spirit of Narayana(Murthi stage), Soul of the Ultimate God, and body of an ordinary human being.
First of all the child born to Ponnu and Veilal died immedietly it born. Then in that body, the soul of Sampooranathevan, a celestial being of Deva Lokam (Upper World) installed along the spirit (not soul) of Narayana (murthi stage). All this events took place in seconds and so the people doesn't know any thing about this. They think a child born to the couple. This man is stated as Sampooranathevan in Akilattirattu and Muthukutty in History. So according to Akilam he was not an ordinary human being, but a celestial being take birth as a human being.
Then at his 24th age he was called inside the sea, he was taken inside (Soul of Sampooranathevan along with the spirit of Narayana was taken by the Sages, Kalai Muni and Gnana Muni into the sea by placing the body in Tharuvai) and there the soul of Sampooranathevan was granted heaven ( moksha). Then the Ultimate Soul or Paramatma,(‘Paramatma’ translated to ‘Ultimate Soul’ in English) or Nirguna Brahman with the spirit of Narayana came out of the sea and take the body from the Tharuvai and proceeded towards Detchanam. And from now he was called Vikundar and as God. This day is celebrated now as day of Avatar of Vaikundar.
Then saying more about Sampooranathevan he was a deva of Deva lokam and he fall in love with Para Devathai a woman of Yama Lokam who leaves herself from her husbund earlier. When all the Devas were asked to take birth in this world to assist God in destroying Kaliyan Sampooranan asked Thirumal to grand birth to Para Devathai along with him. Thirumal said that any way she was the wife of another person, and also you are from Deva lokam and she was from Yama Lokam. Yor are great but she is not so. So your’s is a wrong desire. But still Sampooranathevan firmly stick to his desire. So Thirumal asked him along with her to porform austirity to take birth unitedly. Any way after a series of happenings their austirity fails. But Thirumal said that since your Austirity met with failure she will born in the world and after living with her husband of Yama Lokam for some years after doing all her duty to him as per her karma she will (he too take birth in this world), leave him and live alone. At that time you two shall meet each other and will fall in love and live as husband and wife a you two will suffer a lot and get bored in the life and realise the (Ultimate real truth) God and both of you will be granted heaven.
As per this promise, Sampooranathevan till his age of 24 lived with Para Devathai in this world and he was granted moksha. – Vaikunda Raja
There is no mention of the child's death in the article. What was the nature of this death, mythical or physical? Steven McCrary 20:46, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
I will add some information about Sampooranathevan to clarify the article. Please check it. Thanks. Steven McCrary 20:46, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
As to my confusion, I can only say that if it confuses me it will confuse others as well. Wikipedia, being an encyclopedia, is designed to provide clear and concise information about a topic to the unaware and the uninformed. This article still needs improvements on this vein. Steven McCrary 20:46, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
Vaikunda, are you 61.2.234.160? In any case, excellent edits! The article is coming together very nicely. Thanks for your patience with me. Steven McCrary 17:34, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

The remainder of Muthukutty's Life[edit]

What happens after the avatar? To be complete, I believe this article should also chronicle the life of the body of Muthukutty after the avatar, possibly by reference to the Ayyavazhi mythology#Post-incarnational events and to the death of the body of Muthukutty. What do others think about this? Steven McCrary 20:46, August 1, 2005 (UTC)


Avatar[edit]

I think the article will now does not confuse any body.I have made changes changes.Then in the third stage of the Avatar where the soul was granted moksha,the soul get unified with the Ultimate god of Ultimate oneness. This action seems similar to advaita tradition.Then onwards the soul of Sampooranathevan han no singularity of it's own from now but it was into the ultimate oneness. It has no other name at all. On other words the singularity of the soul of Sampooranathevan gets destroyed and flow together in to the Ultimate soul. So it is notable that not to call it as Ultimate soul of Sampooranathevan.But instead Ultimate Soul. – Vaikunda Raja


Sorry for the Mistake[edit]

Sorry for a mistake. On a deep reading of Akilam I found that the child born to Ponnu and Veiyelal did not died, after the birth but born dead.I've made changes in the article. - Vaikunda Raja

Citation[edit]

On what account this article was marked for citation. See the external links. - Vaikunda Raja 21:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The link to kanyakumarionline is down. The second link to the page on the Nadars does not contain any mention of Ayya Vaikundar the third link seems to be the website of the organisation(?) Are these considered valid references? See WP:CITE - Parthi 22:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


Let me explain. You say Mr. X is born in Y region on date D. How do we know that's true? (no offence, this is just an example). Wikipedia's basis is verifiability, which triumphs truth. Whatever you write may or may not be true, we simply have no idea about that unless you provide a reference from an established, independent source. Organisational websites or devotional websites that put forward claims do not count as valid established sources. The unsourced tag applies to the whole article. How do we know even a single part of it is correct? Or as a complete outsider, how do I verify it? That's why the source tag was inserted, and until you provide them, I'm putting the tag back. Thanks. --Ragib 02:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


I have gone through and tried to copyedit this article in an attempt to prune the proletysing tone of this article. There is still much work to be done. The article is full of POV and there is not a shred of evidence to support any of its claims. - Parthi 23:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The day of birth of Muthu kutty is neither noted in history Nor in Ayyavazhi mythology. But the day of incarnation of Vaikundar was noted. Still there are several assumptions. In other matters I will cite. Wait for a day or two. - Vaikunda Raja 11:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

POV[edit]

This article needs a thorough copyedit to remove POV statements. e.g.

Ayya Vaikundar, who arose from the sea at Thiruchendur on 20th of the Tamil Month of Masi
He, then, gathered the people around, and caused some of them, both male and female, to get 'possessed' of the evil spirits (peyattam).
People came to him to listen to his teachings and instructions, to be cured by him of different diseases,

Parthi 23:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a bio article - not a 'belief related article[edit]

As abio article in an encyclopedia, this article should contain statements such as 'bodily present', etc. - Parthi 19:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

But the life history of Vaikundar known from external sources are too small. More over this is not the life history of Muthukutty or Mudisuudum Perumal. But of Vaikundar. Vaikundar is the name mentioned in Akilam. So if Biography is provided for Vaikundar it should be completely based on that source. If there are historical evidences related to that it may be sourced. But not against the main source.
Also as per Akilam the career of Vaikundar and muthukutty begins from different place and time. That is Vaikundar starts from Thiruchendur Sea and Muthukutty from the birth as a child. If needed seperate articles could be provided on Biography on Mudisoodum Perumal. - Vaikunda Raja.

What Muthukutty[edit]

I already told this is a beleif related article.

Although the Ayyavazhi mythology insists that its founder was an incarnation of the god Vishnu, it was in real life founded by a man named Muthukutty. Muthukutty, when he was 24 suddenly decided to proclaim his divinity. He utilised the superstitious nature of the downtrodden people of southern Tamil Nadu to establish the faith which came to be known as Ayyavazhi. Muthukutty also tried to help these people who had been oppressed by the government and the stratified Hindu society. He taught them to respect themselves and gave them a unique faith and a worship practice to define their own identity. He was harassed by the then government and spent some time in gaol. On returning he performed some 'miracles' with the help of the village shamans. With the increase in the followers who were desparate to find solutions to their sufferings, Muthukutty's popularity also increased. Some of his followers began to compile the set of rules for this new faith and these became the Arule Nool and Akilam.

I strongly object this. Are you personally attacking. How you can tell "He utilises the superstitious nature of the downtrodden people"?

Saying Religious belief as superstitious!!! Once I remember, some one added Article:Religion to the Category:Superstition, and how he was condemned by wikipedian users uniformly.

Then, Akilam didn't say that Vaikundar is Mudisoodum Perumal. Akilam itself says that they were two. It says that at his 24th age Sampooranathevan (known as Mudisoodum Perumal in history) was granted heaven and in that body Vaikundar incarnated. Even Sampooranathevan was a great reformer as per I've read. Akilam itself says it. Also some historical writers say that in (I think) Thol seelai poorattam (Upper cloth Agitation) Mudisoodum perumal participated. Also Akilam and some few external sources says about the divine powers of even Mudisoodum Perumal. That is he was called for a treat by the caste Hindus in Munthuvazh Malai (a hillock). There 5 types of poison were given by mixing up in milk to Mudisoodum Perumal. But miraculously Perumal remained affected. This poison was early tested with dogs. This show the divine power of Perumal himself. But still Vaikundar was not Perumal. Perumal at his 24 died. Vaikundar incarnated then in his body.

The right way is to start another Ayyavazhi related article about Muthukutty or Mudisoodum Perumal, and tell the historical and religious views on him. Also if you see historically do you know exactly when did Mudisoodum Perumal born? Even historians follow Akilam.

Then what does this means? "Some of his followers began to compile the set of rules for this new faith and these became the Arule Nool and Akilam.". Are you telling Akilam was composed by the followers? Only the history of Arul Nool unknown. There were no reference about the origin of Arul Nool. But Akilam?!!

Also these usages is not healthy, suddenly decided to proclaim his divinity- He utilised the superstitious nature of the downtrodden people- performed some 'miracles' with the help of the village shamans- followers began to compile the set of rules for this new faith.

I am removing the contents from this sub-heading. Again not removing unilaterally. - Vaikunda Raja

Palmyra[edit]

The article states that the subject in his early life made his living as a Palmyra climber. The name links to a ghost city in Syria. I will delete the link. What is meant by a "Palmyra climber" in India? J S Ayer (talk) 04:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure enough, someone has stuck it back, with a reference. Come on, what is it supposed to be? Palm climber? That would fit with "agricultural laborer." J S Ayer (talk) 00:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The Palmyra is Borassus tree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.77.188 (talk) 11:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The article doesn't correspond to Wikipedia's rules[edit]

One cannot understand from this article where is biography and where is religion. Rewrite.93.183.240.237 (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

That is not accidental; There are two 'Vaikundar'(s)  ; A religious figure (Vaikundar: based on Akilam, Arul Nool and beliefs) and another a historical man (Mudisoodum perumal: drawn upon historians and a few missionary reports). It is ideal to split the article into two. - Vaikunda Raja (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

it still needs to be fixed. The article is in absolutely horrible shape, and it is also duly tagged with {{cleanup}}. So, {{fixit}}. I mean, sheesh, Vaikundar isn't the only person who has been considered a deity, and we manage to write decent articles about all of the others, even Jesus. If we can have an encyclopedic article about Jesus (Christ), we can also have an encyclopedic article about Muthukutty (Ayya Vaikundar). --dab (𒁳) 10:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

suggestions[edit]

No information about Ayya Vaikundar == social reforms == — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.105.101 (talk) 15:31, 8 January 2013 (UTC)