Talk:Ayyubid dynasty

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Comment by john[edit]

NOTE:Makes no sense to say arab dynasty of Kurdish origin, mutually exclusice ethnicities, have amended

Note: I tried to list the Ayyubid rulers in the shorter versions of their names, rather than the full versions. In some cases, though, especially in the minor rulers at the end, I wasn't sure which name they would actually be known by, so I guessed based on the way the rulers I was more familiar with are named.

Also, I can't find a list of the Ayyubid rulers of the Jezireh (Northern Iraq). Any help on that would be good. john 04:57 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Well, it's three years later, and still no list of Ayyubid rulers of the Jezireh. Sigh. john k 14:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

--- Is it really necessary to use the Columbia Encyclopedia for a reference to his Kurdish ancestry? That's just some other encyclopedia. They have the same sources we do and they don't go into any further detail. (In my mind it's not even the type of thing that needs a reference, apparently only Turks believe he wasn't Kurdish...) Adam Bishop 16:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

All Ayyubid sultans had Arabic names, and the last one ,Turanshah, had a Turkish name. What are the references saying Ayyubid dynasty was a Kurdish dynasty? Are there any written document from that era proving that? Without any reference, anything written here can't go beyond being a point of opinion.

Ibn Asir who was a historian at the same time of Ayyubid dynasty confirms that this family were of kurdish origin.About names majority of muslims had arabic names, and Turanshah is persian name which composed of two persian word Turan and Shah and actually this names Turanshah, Gilanshah and Kermanshah ,Iranshah were common in Iran at era, It just reamins one question why a kurdish tribal leader chose such a name for his son because kurdish names were different.Another point is that uncle of salaheddin was Shirkuh which is a classical kurdish name and even nowadays are used between kurds.

Thats not true, "Shirkoh" is not a kurdish name, but an iranian name as origin! Another error in your claims, Turanshah is not persian. Turan is a turkish word and shah means ruler, so it is a combined word. I was searching on google and i could not find a single proof that "Shirkoh" is used as a kurdish name nowadays. Despite that, Saladins family was mixed, there were turks, kurds and arabs. Can you show me some sources that Saladin spoke about his kurdish origin? Saladin not even spoke kurdish, but arabian language. So what makes him kurdish, if he even didnt lived the kurdish kulture? I could not see one single convincing source for the claims in the article. --LACongress 07:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what do you mean?Kurdish is an Iraniac language and that is clear that kurdish names must have Iranic language root.But some kurdish names (although have clear meaning in other Iranic languages)are specific just to Kurds names like Barzan,Rezgar,Hiwa,Hemen,...and Shirkuh.Shirkuh is a very well known kurdish name between kurds.
And everybody knows Turan is a classical Iranian geographical name and has no root in any turkish language. TuranShah is a persian name,thats completely clear.About your claim that there is no source to prove that he spoke Kurdish is very strange,so can we claim that because there is no document to prove that malikshah to be turk, just because
there is no source to prove that he spoke Turkic.By this logic origin of majority of turkic rulers became doubtful,Anyway do you like Kasravi or not?if you do,please check the book Shahryaran e Gomnam , in that he proves the origin of Ayubid dynasty.(Kasravi was an azeri from tabriz and he din't like kurds at all) If you do not like kasravi,ok check Ibn Asir, because it is the main source that all historian refer to it and prove that that family is kurdish origin.
Shirkoh is an iranian name, not kurdish! Kurds are not iranians genetically as you can read yourself on wikipedia in the kurds-article! Only because you speak an iranian language doesnt make you somekind of iranian people!
Vasili Nikitine quoting Vladimir Minorsky says “Very early in the Arab historiography the word kurd became a synonyme for nomad”[4].The anthropologist Van Bruinessen says “Medieval arab geographers used the term ‘Kurd’ (in its arabic plural form ‘Akrad’) ::::to denote all nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes that were neither Arab nor Turkish”[5].
[4] Nikitine Basile, 1956/1975, Les Kurdes, étude sociologique et historique, Librairie Klincksiek, Paris, p. 9.
[5] Van Bruinessen Martin, 1999, Agha, Shaykh and State. The social and political structures of Kurdistan, New Jersey, Zed Books ::::Ltd, p. 111. --LACongress 05:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
1)Shirkuh is a kuridish name, and kurdish language is a branch of Iranic languages.
2)Iranian has two meaning,citizens of country of Iran which has nothing to do with linguistics and a linguistic classification which kurdish is a branch of this language family so kurds are Iranic people in the second meaning and some of kurds are citizens of Iran by the first meaning.
3)ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics, this was fabricated by panturks and has no scientific base,those who speaking an Iranic language are part of Iranic people(in linguistical meaning).
4)If those nomads were not Arab or Turk,so they were Iranics,and in Iran there are only three major iranic nomadic group, Kurds,Lurs,Baluches.No baluch or lUrs were in northwestern Iran at that time, so Saladdin family were of kurdish origin.
5)Firdowsi who lived 150 years before Saladdin in his book shahnameh wrote a chapter about origin of kurds(kingdom of Zahhak),in the end of it he says
konun kord azAn tokhme dArad nezhad-------------kaz Abad nAyad bedel barsh Yad.
this completely proves that at least in his time, kurds were considered as a seperate ethnicity.
On the Saladin Wikipedia Page the kurdish nationalist like to bring sources from Minorsky. See what Minorsky says (Studies in Caucasian History, pp. 114-16, 123, 128-30), says that the Rawadya Kurds are connected to the descendants of the Arab general Rawwad Azd, who was governor of Tabrz ca. 200/815. These men, having become Kurdicized (means assimilated), emerge in the late fourth/tenth century as the paramount clan among the powerful Hadobanya tribe in Azerbaijan, whence one branch moved to take up residence in the district of Dvin at some point in the eleventh century. The kurdish ultranationalists claim he is kurdish, but Saladin never said that he is kurdish. His ancestory came from Iran --LACongress 05:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
first if you accept what monorisky has said then you answered yoursel, because you mentioned kurdicized,you know actualy majority of Turks are Turkicized too, and this is clear for majority of nations, so they were kurd when migrated to egypt,
But what Minorisly had said is not true,and you just mention a very famous error that was prevailed in one hundred years ago,and has been completely discussed until now, Saladdin was from ravadi tribe which was a branch of Hadzbani confedration a very famous kurdish tribe(Ibn Asir, Tarikh e Ravandi,...both books are available in markets and Ibn Asir also has been translated in Persian) ravadi kurds were never in Azarbaijan, they just were in Aran and Armenia, but not in Azarbaijan.they founded two dynasty (except Ayuubian) Shaddadian one in Ganjeh in Aran and the other in Ani in Armenia.
Rawwad was an arab man who came to Azarbaijan and found a dynasty named as Rawwadi and then his sons founded Sheybanian and Ahmadilian in azarbaijan. these people were not assimilated and ruled azarbaijan until the time of Saljuqs and also served saljuq kings.
These families were completely different even their spell is different. Kurdish one is Ravadi and Arabic one was Rawwadi,which is a "sighe ye mobalaghe"
for a proof of that there is a poem of Qatran e Tabrizi which says:
yeki be gohar ShaddAd o zu be gohar bish ----- yeki be tokhme rawwado zu be molk afzun.


I replied to this ridiculous comment on the talk page of Shrikuh. SohrabeDelavar 14:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

On the Saladin Wikipedia Page the kurdish nationalist like to bring sources from Minorsky. See what Minorsky says (Studies in Caucasian History, pp. 114-16, 123, 128-30), says that the Rawadya Kurds are connected to the descendants of the Arab general Rawwad Azd, who was governor of Tabrz ca. 200/815. These men, having become Kurdicized (means assimilated), emerge in the late fourth/tenth century as the paramount clan among the powerful Hadobanya tribe in Azerbaijan, whence one branch moved to take up residence in the district of Dvin at some point in the eleventh century. The kurdish ultranationalists claim he is kurdish, but Saladin never said that he is kurdish. His ancestory came from Iran --LACongress 03:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
first if you accept what monorisky has said then you answered yoursel, because you mentioned kurdicized,you know actualy majority of Turks are Turkicized too, and this is clear for majority of nations, so they were kurd when migrated to egypt,
But what Minorisly had said is not true,and you just mention a very famous error that was prevailed in one hundred years ago,and has been completely discussed until now, Saladdin was from ravadi tribe which was a branch of Hadzbani confedration a very famous kurdish tribe(Ibn Asir, Tarikh e Ravandi,...both books are available in markets and Ibn Asir also has been translated in Persian) ravadi kurds were never in Azarbaijan, they just were in Aran and Armenia, but not in Azarbaijan.they founded two dynasty (except Ayuubian) Shaddadian one in Ganjeh in Aran and the other in Ani in Armenia.
Rawwad was an arab man who came to Azarbaijan and found a dynasty named as Rawwadi and then his sons founded Sheybanian and Ahmadilian in azarbaijan. these people were not assimilated and ruled azarbaijan until the time of Saljuqs and also served saljuq kings.
These families were completely different even their spell is different. Kurdish one is Ravadi and Arabic one was Rawwadi,which is a "sighe ye mobalaghe"
for a proof of that there is a poem of Qatran e Tabrizi which says:
yeki be gohar ShaddAd o zu be gohar bish ----- yeki be tokhme rawwado zu be molk afzun.

Flag[edit]

Can we Assume the Saladin forces flag appeared on this movie as the real flag of Ayyubids ? has anyone seen the film ? Ammar (Talk - Don't Talk) 17:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but probably not (as with everything else in that movie). Adam Bishop 20:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

AYYUBIDS WAS A TURKISH STATE[edit]

Saladin is a Turkish warrior and statesman.

First the descriptin of nation changes often by time. Sometimes the description of a nation means people that live in a country, sometimes means people that believe in same religeon, sometimes means people that has same origin, sometimes means people that has same culture. In the time of Saladin, nation meant people that believe in same religion that is Islam.

The reality of Saladin was Turkish was accepted by the world untill 16. century but later 1-2 man said Saladin was Kurdish to create a nation in the region of the Middle East, but that was not real, that was only a form distorted of a thought. That thought was said after 350 years of Saladin was dead without a real prof.

If we need to examine the origin of Saladin then we have to make that with scientific eye. Then we have to consider all the conditions and realities of that term. Genetic come from father half and mother half. That means %50 from father, %50 from mother. Saladin’s mother was Turkish, Saladin’ s father’s mother was Turkish, too. That was prooved by the scientific circle. And The wife of Saladin was Turkish, too. That means if we dont know the origin of Saladin’s father’s father or if we know Saladin’s father father was Kurdish or Arabian, That never can’t change the reality of Saladin was Turkish. Saladin’s father’s mother was Turkish means Saladin’s father was half Turkish (%50) and Saladin’s mother was Turkish too means Saladin’s was carrying Turkish blood more than %75, and Saladin’s wife was Turkish too means Saladin’s sons were carrying Turkish blood more than %87,5 and that was very high level. Those means Ayyubids were TURKISH, SALADIN WAS TURKISH.

Saladin accepted an eagle the symbol of his state, and eagle means the symbol of the Turkish states. Saladin was a commander of Seljuks that was a Turkish state, and Saladin speakt Turkish.

Saladin’ s brother’ s names was Tuğtekin, Şahinşah, Böri, Turanşah that is ancient Turkish names. Does a Kurdish family give the Turkish names to their children ?

AS A RESULT, SALADIN WAS A TURKISH WARRIER AND STATESMAN.

SALADIN WAS TURKISH.

I'm not sure where you get the notion that the names Turanshah and Shahanshah are Turkish. Shahanshah is an ancient Persian term meaning "king of kings," in use at least back to Sassanid times, and Turanshah combines the ancient Persian term for Central Asia (ancestral homeland of the Turks) with the ancient Persian word for "king." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.14.224 (talk) 04:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Saladin was a Kurd , everybody knows. Ammar (Talk - Don't Talk) 23:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There Should be a Template for Arab Empire, and Ayyubid dynasty part of it, sorry to dissapoint my fellow friends Kurds but this Dynasty had nothing to do with Kurds other then Salahdin being born their, he grew up in Syria and lived his entire life as an Arab rather then Kurd, i doubt he even knew how to speak Kurdish, anyway, this article needs to be fixed to be included as an Arab Dynasty rather then a Kurdish one, i mean, for gods sake Kurdistan wasnt even part of the country's boundries... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League (talkcontribs) 12:39, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

There Should be a Template for Arab Empire, and Ayyubid dynasty part of it, sorry to dissapoint my fellow friends Kurds but this Dynasty had nothing to do with Kurds other then Salahdin being born their, he grew up in Syria and lived his entire life as an Arab rather then Kurd, i doubt he even knew how to speak Kurdish, anyway, this article needs to be fixed to be included as an Arab Dynasty rather then a Kurdish one, i mean, for gods sake Kurdistan wasnt even part of the country's boundries...

as for saladin being turkish... it really made me read the entire post, i found it enything but true, i found it ammusing tho, if anyones interested to know...

anyways, Saladin is more of an Arab then a turk, he is a Kurd, but that doesnt neccesary mean that the Ayyubid Empire was a Kurdish one, its capital was Cairo, and had no control over northern Iraq, Iraq or north western Iran... it didnt include the Kurdish homeland as we know it today, or as they knew it back then... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League (talkcontribs) 12:45, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

Mongols[edit]

This article needs a section on the Mongols, specifically the capture of Syria in 1260, a major turning point in the destruction of the dynasty. --Elonka 10:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

grammar fix[edit]

I just brushed up a little grammar mistake I spotted. Not much, but 'every little helps'. --Huss4in (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! We could use as much help as possible. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ayyubid dynasty/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Initial comments[edit]

Looks good. Plenty of references to reliable works, scope seems good. I'm not sure about ref #1, which ideally either needs to be tidied up with more details or replaced (I can't access it myself). At current #55 and #56 are duplicates, but it's not a widespread problem. (If you could find another map or two for different times, all the better.) It certainly looks like a good contender. - Jarry1250 [ humorousdiscuss ] 12:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ref #1 was removed because its presence is unnecessary. The fact they were ethnically Kurdish and Sunni Muslims by religion is covered in the Origins and Demographics section with other sources. The two duplicate refs pointed out were also taken care of. As for the maps, I will get two more for different time periods (one for after the loss of Yemen, the Hejaz, and parts of Mesopotamia in the 1240s and another for after the loss of Egypt.) --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Full review[edit]

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    a) The position of Saladin is unclear in the lead. This sentence is an opportunity: "The Ayyubid family, under the brothers Ayyub and Shirkuh, originally served as soldiers for the Zengids until they gradually gained independence under Saladin." Who gained independence and from whom? I'd suggest saying "Ayyub's son" in there just to confirm.
I clarified. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
  1. b) Good, other than above.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    All good. There are two references from one author with 106 years apart, but that's not a problem. The Google books links go to individual pages with things highlighted - ideally get rid of everything past, and including, the "&pg" in the url for just the book. That's a bonus anyway, but something to think about.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Well covered. Lots of information, but well sectioned.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    No really contentious issues, but legacy is positive. Were there any negative consequences of Ayyubid infrastructure? They aren't mentioned if there are.
Forgive me, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "infrastructure". Do you mean were there any negative consequences of Ayyubid rule? If so, from what I have read, there were actually very few negatives, unlike the succeeding Mamluks, or preceding Fatimids, but I guess that's because they didn't rule for long (if you count out the Hama-based dynasty, the Ayyubids really ruled from 1171 to 1260, roughly 90 years.) There are some negatives, however, such as their general maltreatment of Coptic Christians in Egypt as compared to the Fatimids and the eventual neglect of Jerusalem because of its loss of strategic importance and civil strifes between the Ayyubid rulers—although the latter is already covered in the Jerusalem article and might be too specific to include in this article. Also, from a Shia standpoint, Ayyubid reign was quite negative as it was the Ayyubids who not only ended the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, but also systematically repressed Shia Islam by constructing dozens of Sunni madrasas and disabling the use of major Shia mosques for Friday prayers. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not important for this review, as long as the general good/bad balance reflects sources, and I have no reason to be;lieve it doesn't. - Jarry1250 [ humorousdiscuss ] 12:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
  1. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
    All conflict seems to have been sorted, particularly since recent additions.
  2. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    There is a temptation to not actually describe what the image is near the top of the article (in favour of "linking" text), but the captions are relevant at least, so it's not too much of a problem.
  3. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    I am assuming that some paragraphs that only have a single reference at the end of them are totally covered in most cases by that reference (rather than solely the last sentence). Well written. - Jarry1250 [ humorousdiscuss ] 18:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you assumed right. Any paragraphs with only one citation at the end means that the citation covers all the info in that paragraph. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
All's good. I think it's not far from FA status, but I'm not an expert on the copyedit criteria required. All of the prose exceeds (and in many cases, well exceeds) the requirements of Good Article status. With your knowlege of the system, maybe you'd like to review another article yourself? - Jarry1250 [ humorousdiscuss ] 12:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the review! I might nominate it for FAC sometime in the next few months. FYI I added a map showing the Ayyubid state right before the Mongol invasion and I will upload one that shows gradual Ayyubid expansion and major cities at the time. I must admit I've never had an interest in reviewing article, but if I see one related to the Middle East (which I know more about) than I'll be happy to review it. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Turkicized bit[edit]

See page 27 for the full passage. If you are unable to do so, I'll provide it for you. The Ayyubids absolutely were Kurds. The article makes that clear as most, if not all, reliable sources agree that they were a Kurdish family. However, this does not mean they weren't "Turkicized" early on (before Saladin) which isn't surprising because of Turkic dominance (Seljuks, Zengids and Artukids) in that area before the rise of the Ayyubids. Anyhow, I used a load of sources in this article and none of them contest that they were Turkicized and all agree that they were obviously Kurds. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay but the book is not published by Western sources. For example Dvin is not in East Azerbaijan but in Armenia. So that shows the author lacks qualification as he does not know simple geography. Also: "The medieval historian Ibn Athir relates a passage from another commander: "...both you and Saladin are Kurds and you will not let power pass into the hands of..." Minorsky (1957).". And note google books
similarly [[1]]
Neither does Britannica mention such a thing: [[2]]
I also looked at Encyclopedia of Islam. Note it says: "AYYCBIDS. Name of the dynasty founded by Salah al-Din b. Ayyub, which, at the end of the

6th/i2th century and in the first half of the 7th/13th century, ruled Egypt, Muslim Syria-Palestine, the major part of Upper Mesopotamia, and the Yemen. The eponym of the family, Ayyub b. Shadh! b. Marwan, born in the village of Adjdanakan near Dvin (Dabll) in Armenia, belonged to the Rawwadi clan of the Kurdish tribe of the Hadhbani, and, at the beginning of the 6th/i2th century, had been in the service of the Shaddadid dynasty, likewise Kurdish, which had been installed in the government of this region by the Saldjulfid Sultan Alp Arslan in the middle of the preceding century. Gradually, however, all the Kurdish princes and lords were eliminated by the Turks."

As I said Vladimir Minorsky has an extensive article on the issue and medieval historian Ibn Athir has shown these were Kurds. Since major sources Minorsky, Encyclopedia of Islam and Britannica mention no such thing and since your source is not published in the West, and since it gets basic geography wrong, I believe it is WP:fringe and violages WP:weight. Thank you--Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the fact that a source wasn't published in "the West" has no bearing whatsoever on it being a reliable source. Is there a policy or guideline that says "if not published in Western countries, the source is not reliable"? Actually, it makes more sense for a source published in "the East" to have more info on the Ayyubids than western sources. Also, maybe in the Middle East, people referred to parts of ancient Armenia as eastern Azerbaijan? This possibly small geographical mistake shouldn't bring down the author who provides information that no other source used provides, namely the Ayyubid economy, education, and patronage in science and medicine. Secondly, again, no one is saying they're not Kurds. This is not about their ethnicity. Thirdly, Good or Featured Wikipedia articles almost always are longer and more detailed than Brittanica or other encyclopedias so just be cause Brittanica or EI don't mention it, it doesn't mean its not true. I never heard of Minorsky or came across anything authored by him when I wrote this article and even if he is famous for his expertise in the area, we're not going to put his view above others. Ali says Najm ad-Din and Shirkuh (fathers of the Ayyubids) served Muslim dynasties (Seljuks, then the Zengids) who happened to be Turkish/Turkic. Due to this presence, naturally, they would be greatly influenced by them. Your concern of undue weight doesn't apply because we've only restricted the Turkicized bit to a line in the body. Throughout the article, including the Origins section, it is made clear that the Ayyubids were Kurds. On another note, when I said see talk, that means let's discuss this issue before we make any changes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your hard work on the article. I believe however the sources should be of the highest quality. Britannica is not but the Encyclopedia of Islam is. The source should be WP:RS. Vladimir Minorsky was a top world orientalist and I think we have to work with WP:weight. Note you have a sentence which says Ayyubids even before taking power were Turkicized. If you look at the article's wikilink (Turkicized), we get: "Turkification (Turkish: Türkleştirme) is a term used to describe a process of cultural change in which something or someone who is not a Turk becomes one, voluntarily" The text you have has said: "The progenitor of the Ayyubid dynasty was Najm ad-Din Ayyub bin Shadhi. He belonged to a Kurdish tribe whose ancestors settled in northern Armenia and had become thoroughly Turkicized"

This sentence is self contradictory or unclear. When were they Turkicized? If Ayyubids were Kurds, then they rose much later than Shadhi whom your sentence claims was Turkicized. So I am not sure if you know the definition, but a person that is Turkicized is basically a Turk in language, culture and etc., except lineage. Much like Egyptians who were Arabicized although the majority are probably descendants of ancient Egyptians rather than Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. Going back to this article, I also refer you to the Iranica article on this issue as well: [3] I think both Encyclopedia of Islam and Iranica provide a good model to follow. Note a major contradiction with what the book you brought suggest:

level of his culture, the matter is equally ambiguous. The Ayyubids ruled a predominantly Arabic-speaking region, and many of their princes became very proficient in Arabic letters and in the religious sciences. However, we see many signs of a continuing connection with their homeland and with Iranian culture generally. Thus, it is clear that al-Malek al-ʿĀdel and his son al-Malek al-Moʿaẓẓam ʿĪsā (d. 624/1227) still spoke Kurdish or even New Persian. And al-Moʿaẓẓam’s particular interest in Iran is seen in his patronage of two works (in Arabic) by Fatḥ b. ʿAlī Bondārī (q.v.): one, a translation of the Šāh-nāma (ed. ʿA. Aʿẓam, Cairo, 1350/1931); the second, the standard abridgment of ʿEmād-al-dīn Kāteb Eṣfahānī’s history of the Saljuqs (ed. M. Th. Houtsma, Recueil de textes relatifs à l’histoire des Seldjoucides, Leiden, 1886-1902, II). Still, there is no evidence of any widespread translation movement among the Ayyubids, or of any general devotion to the Persian classics.

It is true, however, that the personal influence of Iranian scholars was very much felt in the religious sciences. Dominique Sourdel has shown that almost one-third of the madrasa professors in Aleppo between about A.D. 1150 and 1250 were of Kurdish or Iranian origin. The same figures would not hold for Damascus, let alone Egypt, but their presence in these places was far from negligible. However, most of these men had come to Syria not under the Kurdish Ayyubids but under the Turkish Zangids, particularly Nūr-al-dīn Maḥmūd, in the third quarter of the sixth/twelfth century (D. Sourdel, “Les professeurs de madrasa à Alep aux XIIe-XIIIe siècles d’après Ibn Šaddād,” Bulletin d’études orientales 13, 1949-51, pp. 85-115).


The most visible and distinctive Kurdish presence was in the army. This process too had begun long before the Ayyubid seizure of power, when the atābak ʿEmād-al-dīn Zangī had begun trying to control the Kurdish-dominated mountains north of Mosul in order to ensure regular access to Kurdish recruits. Though the Kurds were viewed with some disdain by Turkish troopers, they were adept at the same mode of warfare (mounted archery) and on a tactical if not social level were easily integrated into the regular Zangid forces. The policy of Kurdish recruitment was doubtless inspired by two problems: 1) That Syria and the Jazīra were unable to obtain many Turkish ḡolāms from Central Asia at this time, and thus could not rely on chiefly mamlūk forces; 2) while Turkman tribesmen were plentiful in this region, their primary loyalties were to their tribes, and they could not be subjected to regular discipline. In this light, Kurdish mercenaries might well seem relatively cheap and reliable.

In spite of the importance of Kurdish recruitment for the Zangid armies, one should not suppose that the Kurds were ever more than a minority of these forces. And though Kurdish troops become more visible than ever before in the reign of Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn, they certainly remained a minority, constituting at the highest possible estimate one-third of his forces. The Kurds in Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn’s armies were sometimes recruited and placed as individuals, but they are more commonly found as members of tribally organized units, of which the sources name four: the Hakkārīya (certainly the largest and most powerful), the Mehrānīya, the Ḥomaydīya, and the Zarzārīya (see, e.g., Abū Šāma, Ketāb al-Rawżatayn II, pp. 144, 179). After Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn’s death, however, such tribal units are rarely recorded, and Kurdish soldiers appear either as individuals or under the collective appellation “al-Akrād.” After Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn, in fact, the Kurds seem to have become a far less prominent part of the Ayyubid military establishment; their amirs are less often members of the political elite, which becomes increasingly Turkish.


In the last two decades of Ayyubid history, however, the Kurds re-emerged as a major political and military force. This was due chiefly to two new Kurdish migrations into Syria (in which both groups appear to carry names of regional origin rather than tribal names). The first of these were the Qaymarīya, who arrived in the train of the Khwarazmian marauders who swept through Syria in 642-43/1244-46; from them were drawn several of the most prominent amirs under al-Nāṣer Yūsof, and they remained a significant force under the Mamluk sultan Rokn-al-dīn Baybars (r. 658/1260-676/1277). The second group was the Šahrazūrīya, fleeing before the Mongols in 657/1259. Though numerous (3,000 mounted warriors), the Šahrazūrīya could not be integrated into the regular forces of al-Nāṣer; they were simply an element in the vast human debris thrown up by the Mongol invasion. In the final analysis, then, the Ayyubids did make a considerable use of Kurdish troops, as had their Turkish predecessors and rivals (the Zangids and Artuqids), but we cannot say that theirs was a Kurdish army.

This is much more detailed article from a very highly respected scholar. It contradicts the Turkicized bit. Because it shows Ayyubids spoke Kurdish (thus not Turkicized), had a large contingent of Kurdish troops and etc. I have also mentioned Vladimir Minorsky. If you want an example of Turkicized dynasty, that is the [{Safavids]]. But the Ayyubids were Kurdish in culture and ethnicity and did not adopt Turkish language and became Turkish voluntarily as the article Turkicized mentions. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Note also the Iranica article is written by Stephen Humphreys who is a top expert on the Ayyubids[4]. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Very good research. Listen, how about you add some of the above info to that part of the Origins section (not much more, perhaps a passage-full) with those references. Its important we have it in the article. I'll keep the "Turkicized" bit out for now. I'll check if Ali uses a citation for it so that we could not only insert the above info, but reinsert the Turkicized bit (and more accurately say "Such-and-such, however, says they were influenced by the Turkish/Turkic soldiers that they served, rather than becoming 'Turks'" or something along those lines.) --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:22, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay thanks, I'll try to add a sentence or just modify something. Thanks for your work on this article. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:17, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Kurdish?[edit]

This is bullshit.Kurdish creating fake history.Cause this idiot peoples new nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.243.7.76 (talk) 13:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually it has a reference and will be reverted. IF you can converse in a civil manner we can work towards a middle ground. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Cherry picking[edit]

I would warn certain "new" editors against cherry picking when adding information. The Cambridge History of Iran source calls the Hahdbani Kurds(p 33) and Saladin a Kurd(p 33). --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Almost all credible sources have acknowledged that Saladin was ethnically a Kurd. Only some medieval sources say he was Turkish. What people personally believe does not belong in an encyclopedia. If an edit war on this issue ensues, I think its best to implement a temporary (and limited lock). --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Saladin wasn't Sultan until 1174[edit]

Saladin founded the Ayyubid dynasty(1171-1250) and AFTER Nur al-din's death in 1174, declared himself sultan. Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East, Volume 1, by Jamie Stokes, p383.
Therefore, it was NOT Sultan Saladin founding the Ayyubid dypnasty, which is historically inaccurate, but Saladin as a chief advisor to Nur al-din. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

According to Will Durant, "...the Fatimid dynasty came to a quiet end. Saladin made himself governor instead of vizier, and acknowledged Nur-ud-din as his soveriegn." --"The Age of Faith" by Will Durant, p.311. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Arabic source[edit]

As per Al Ameer son's edit[5] and summary "The source actually supports that specific material in the article", I would like to see the quote from Hourani's book, "A History of the Arab peoples", that supports the sentence, "Arabic was the language of high culture and of the urban population, but other native languages continued to be used in some rural communities throughout the Ayyubid territories".
Hourani's book page 96 states, "In the same way, while Arabic was the language of high culture and much of the urban population, other languages still survived from the period before the coming of the Muslim conquerors".
I see no connection to the Ayyubids, much less any mention of them. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Yep, that's the quote. And no, the source does not explicitly mention the Ayyubids, but rather the general Middle East and its urban population. When I said "specific material" I meant that the source supported the text on Arabic being the dominant language of high culture and the urban centers of the Middle East. The "Ayyubid territories" are simply included within the latter. I think we should keep the text, but replace the "Ayyubid territories" portion with the "Middle East" to avoid WP:OR. The book continues on to describe the various religions and Muslim sects that existed in the various regions controlled by the Ayyubids, i.e. the Nile Valley, Yemen and Syria. If we come by a source (might require some good digging) that specifically describes the Ayyubid territories, then we should replace the present text. We could also look for sources that specifically discuss Egypt, Syria, Jazira, Yemen, etc. during the 12th and 13th centuries. For instance, one of the sources used and just added (Goldshcmidt) states that Egypt's population was largely speaking Arabic by time the Ayyubids gained control. Until then, I think it's best to keep it the way it is (with some clarifications and corrections) just like the population figures which do not specifically describe the Ayyubid sultanate, but rather Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Transjordan and northern Mesopotamia. Thoughts? --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I only removed the entire sentence since once this part is removed, "..but other native languages continued to be used in some rural communities throughout the Ayyubid territories", the rest of the sentence does not pertain to the Ayyubids. Thank you. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I modified the sentence to reflect the source better and I found some other relevant sources dealing with this matter as well. They do not directly discuss the Ayyubids, but rather 12th-century Egypt and Syria. I'll add some of the material later. Regards, --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:05, 6 April 2013 (UTC)