Talk:Baal

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References to Religious Texts[edit]

This article is heavy on references to the Bible and Qur'an without scholarly interpretation of those references, particularly in the section on Ba'al of Tyre. The facts reported in this topic should be supported by scholarship based on something other than religious texts, which have an agenda of pushing their own deity to the exclusion of others. It is entirely appropriate to cite religious texts when discussing mention of Baal in those texts. However, if only religious texts are cited to support facts, it would appear that the person stating these facts is promoting his original research, not to mention his dogma. Aramink (talk) 23:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Baal of Ugarit[edit]

I'm surprised to see that the article lacks to mention Ugaritic Baal, whose cult played a very significant role in the religious life of ancient Ugarit and who is one of the main characters in Ugaritic poetic narratives such as KTU, 1.1; 1.3; 1.5; 1.10; 1.12; 1.82. To all editors who have enough free time (which is something I lack at the moment), I recommend to correct this omission. Asharidu (talk) 06:43, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Dios <-> God analogy[edit]

Just a quick scribble: The analogy

> A contemporary example of this would be God in English and Dios in Spanish.

is a bit off if I understood the article corrrectly, since the _name_ of god is different amongst languages, not his title. So Ba'al stands to God and "Hadad vs Melqart" is more comparable to Jehova, and maybe different transliterations lke Jahwee.

88.159.74.100 (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


Baal or Bal is an indoeuropean word for Dragon or Snake.for example the name of the dacian king Decebal (dece ten, bal . dragon,snake)it could mean tensnakes or tendragons. in southern romania Bală is an archaic word meaning "large snake".in romanian mythology we have the Balaur meaning dragon . also in contemporary romanian bală is a word to depict saliva dangling from the mouth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.52.225.123 (talk) 19:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Ba'al Zebûb[edit]

I'm not sure about this section. The Oxford guide to people & places of the Bible By Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D. Coogan says "BAAL-ZEBUB. The 'Phoenician god at Ekron consulted by King Al The name in Hebrew means "L Flies" but no evidence exists for a Philistine god who either drove off flies or gave oracles through their buzzing. The Hebrew form is probably a derogatory transformation of Baal-zebul, which appears in Ugaritic texts meaning "Lord *Baal," but could also be understood as "Master of the Heavenly House" (cf. Matt 10.25)."[1] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible says "oIt is more likely that the name was originally ba'al-zibdl (cf. Beelzebul in the NT). Although ztbul alone can mean "lofty, exalted place' (thus "lord of heaven"), the fixed phrase zbl b'l ("prince Baal") at Ugarit supports taking Baal-zcbul as a local manifestation of the storm-god Baal. Baal-zebub would thus be a derogatory pun on the original name." [2]

A comparative study of thirty city-state cultures: an investigation By Mogens Herman Hansen "From Ihc Bible we learn that the Philistines in Ekron in the middle of the 9lh century worshipped the Canaanite god Ba'al-Zebub, Lord of the Flies (2 Kings 1,2-17): although this name is very early, it is also attested in the Greek versions, and is probably a parody of a genuine Canaanite god's name. "Ba'al Zebul", which means "Prince Ba'al" and is found already in the lexis from Ugarit. Il shows that the Philistines were prompt to acculturale thcmsclve religiously lo their Levantine surroundings (cf, Ura (19701463)."

Zondervan says much the same- "a deliberate change by followers of the Lord (Yahweh) to ridicule and protest the worship of Baal-Zebul (Baal the Prince)." p.347

So, I think the section heading has the wrong name, and needs to be rewritten in the light of the above. Comments? Dougweller (talk) 17:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

the article is generally quite bad. I did a little bit of cleanup, but much work is still needed. --dab (𒁳) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Archive[edit]

I put the actual archive content in the archive. Group29 (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Hadad vs. other Baals[edit]

The article makes a mess of diachrony. The fact that there were many Baals in biblical times (6th to 5th century BC) says nothing about Bronze Age Canaanite religion (Ugarit). As far as I know, Hadad was the original god who came to be identified as Baal, and it is misleading to say that he was one among many gods so identified. The proper way of putting it would be that Hadad-Baal became so popular that 800 years later, at the time of the Hebrew Bible, he had fragmented into numerous regional deities called "Baal". Gods and religions don't just stay the same over 1,000 years, and it is important to make clear which period is being discussed at any time. --dab (𒁳) 11:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

all usages of Baal in the Tanakh[edit]

Though not Translated, Abraham and Sarah are the first called Baal and Baallat, these words simply mean "Boss and Owner," like in a Male and Female Relationship, translating them as Husband and Wife is not correct, before having a Mate Joseph is called Baal of the Dreams, and it foretells of a Baal of the Arrows that lays in wait for Joseph in the latter days, and it speaks of People who are Baal of Cattle and or Land and or Possessions. Even before the Law was written by Moses, under Phonetician and Egyptian Oral Law, it was a death sentence for anyone to take and or trespass on the Property of a Baal or Baalat, which is why Yahweh said to the King he was a dead Man for taking the Baalet Sarah from the Baal Abraham, when he had taken Sarah, which was before written Law.

--User:JosephLoegering User_talk:JosephLoegering 2:53, 16 July 2011

Nice. And now go on and filter it into the various usages of the word. Especially where Baal indeed refers to the deity. ♆ CUSH ♆ 09:10, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Great, I thought this was the English Wikipedia... If you're going to give us the Hebrew, perhaps a translation might be useful?1812ahill (talk) 00:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Semitic cognates[edit]

In Ge'ez and Amharic the form bal means husband or owner and has no negative connotation. But the name for the pagan idol cursed in the Bible is Be'al, a lexically distinct phoneme. Another very similar word is be`al (note the different apostrophe) meaning 'holiday', also a distinct phoneme with no negative connotation. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Arabic transliteration[edit]

Why the transliteration "baʿalah)"? The final letter is ta marbuta so surely baʿalat is correct? Northutsire (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

In Arabic, ta marbuta is pronounced "h" when it's at the end of the sentence (i.e. without diacritics). Yazan (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain t/c 18:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)



BaʿalBaal – According to the Lead, "Baʿal" is "usually spelled Baal in English".

As such, per WP:COMMONNAME, this article should be moved to Baal over the redirect. --Dweller (talk) 14:11, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

  • Strong Support, all the sources I came across refer to him as Baal. (Which is why I chose to ignore this title in the article on Baal with Thunderbolt). Yazan (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the ` is correct because it represents an audible glottal stop in the correct pronunciation used in the Ancient Near East, and still today in Semitic languages with cognates. Yes, I know, because of the Great Vowel Shift etc., a number of Biblical names have completely unique new pronunciations in English only, when the pronunciation in other languages might be closer to the original correct one. But people who pronounce this "BAYyul" tend to come across as completely ignorant of the sounds of the culture this actually came from, and showing there was really a glottal consonant between the two A's helps in part not to perpetuate this ignorance, but rather to dispel it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:29, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I understand that (I speak Arabic, so it makes perfect sense to me) but we do have a policy on common names in English, or else Averroes would've been Ibn Rushd. Yazan (talk) 16:34, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
  • <edit conflict>Hi. I appreciate your scholarly erudition, but Wikipedia does not name articles in a scholarly manner but does so according to Wikipedia policy. The policy is to name articles as they are most commonly referred to in English language reliable sources. Hence we have our articles on Federal Republic of Germany and Edison Arantes do Nascimento at Germany, and Pelé. Taking your proposal to its logical extension, we would have Alexander the Great not even at Alexander III of Macedon, but presumably at Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας. The point is to have the article at the place where the user of an encyclopedia would expect to find it, not an expert in the field. --Dweller (talk) 16:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - We should try to use proper naming whenever possible.
  1. Using Baʿal over Baal doesn't violate recognizability, one of the reasons we would use a common name over a proper name.
  2. Anyone searching for 'Baal' is redirected to 'Baʿal'.
  3. From an English speaker's perspective, the difference would look more like one of punctuation than spelling.
  4. I doubt 'Baal' is even common enough in English to warrant a common spelling exception.
Sowlos (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
  • You may have a point in (1), (2,3) are irrelevant and subjective. (4) is patently wrong though, "Ba'al" gets 327,000 results on GBooks, while "Baal" gets 3,570,000 (almost 10x) including important book titles and publications. Yazan (talk) 18:39, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
On 4, I have reservations using Google hits as a metric, even when limited to books.
On 2 & 3, these points are very much relevant and tied with 1. If an English reader types 'Baal' and finds themself on 'Baʿal', they are not likely to be confused. I put forth that English readers are likely to interpret that sort of difference as one of grammar and not quite one of spelling. Wikipedia has a tradition of using redirects to correct common grammatical errors, rather than conforming article titles to them.
I am not sure the common name exception is completely applicable hear. It is meant to deal with the issues of Alexander the Great vs Alexander III of Macedon vs Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας or Confucius vs Kong Qiu vs Kong Fuzi vs K'ung Fu-tzu or Caffeine vs 1,3,7-trimethyl-1H-purine-2,6(3H,7H)-dione. What we are dealing with is more nuanced and not nearly as noticeable, confusing, or problematic as the aforementioned differences in spelling and title.
Sowlos (talk) 10:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm afraid it isn't just Google. JSTOR returns 10031 results for Baal, while only 1741 for "Ba'al". As for the rest of your points: you can see from the more prominent example of Ali (which has the same glottal sound as Baal, and should thus be at ʿAli), whereby a common, recognizable and standard transliteration of the name in Latin alphabet, is used instead of the (perhaps) more accurate one phonetically. Furthermore, there seems to be agreement across other Wikipedias (French, Spanish, German....) that this is the most recognizable and common spelling in Latin alphabets; I don't see why English should be any different. Yazan (talk) 04:08, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
This isn't an issue I'll obstruct a clear majority over. If no other positions of objection are lodged by the weekend, you'll have at least a consensus-1.
Sowlos (talk) 09:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Same here, and I can't help but point out that it can be expressed in Latin with just a 4 word phrase: "Nec Hercules contra plures!" Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:40, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support I always wondered why the apostrophe was there. Ties in nice with my Baal Hermon page which should get merged with Ba'al Hermon now. Paul Bedsontalk 00:50, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Material that should be removed[edit]

This should be removed. 'In any case, King Ahab, despite supporting the cult of this Baʿal, had a semblance of worship to Yahweh (1 Kings 16-22). Ahab still consulted Yahweh's prophets and cherished Yahweh's protection when he named his sons Ahaziah ("Yahweh holds") and Jehoram ("Yahweh is high.")' It is not relevant to this article. This article is about Baal, and not about King Ahab, or Yahweh. I propose to remove this material. Cocoamelia (talk) 01:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

9th century?[edit]

It was the program of Jezebel, in the 9th century, to introduce into Israel's capital city of Samaria her Phoenician cult of Baal as opposed to the worship of Yahweh that made the name anathema to the Israelites.[16] The competition between the priestly forces of Yahweh and of Baal in the ninth century is attested in 1Kings 18. Elijah the prophet challenged Baal's prophets to settle the question whether it was Ba'al or Yahweh who supplied the rain. Elijah offered a sacrifice to Yahweh; Baal's followers did the same. According to the Hebrew Bible, Baal did not light his followers' sacrifice, but Yahweh sent heavenly fire to burn Elijah's sacrifice and altar to ashes, even after it had been soaked with water. Directly after that event, Elijah had the prophets of Ba'al slain and soon it begins to rain.

Clearly there are some mistakes in this paragraph. 1 Kings is part of the Hebrew Bible which stopped adding books before 1st century BCE. Is this "9th century" a mistake from "9th century BCE"?

It's common in scholarly contexts to omit "BCE" when it's obvious (to experts) that the timeframe is before the Common Era. But as this can be confusing to readers not familiar with this convention or with the subject, I'll add it. -Snarkibartfast (talk) 14:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

El, Dagon, Molok Baal Hadad-Hammon & YHWH[edit]

Established interpretations about Canaanite and Phoenician deities are affected by Jewish-Christian biased interpretations, and thus they are categorically wrong. Canaan is etymologized from "Can" ("Serpent") "An" ("Lord"). Assyrian god Enki (Lord-Earth) proves that "En" and "An" variants mean "Lord". Thus "Can-An" means "Serpent-Lord", referring to Canaanite pantheon headed by Serpent Lord Dagon (i.e. El). El is both noun (God) and subjective (god). To Phoenicians Baal was not El, because El fathered Baal Hadad-Hammon as well as all other deities of Phoenician pantheon. Canaanites knew El with name Dagon: Dagon was El. Irish father god Dagda is form of Dagon-El i.e. Daniel: Canaanites introduced Dagon-Dagda to Ireland. Canaanites were not descendants of Noah as Jewish propaganda claims but descendants of Danube urn-field cultures, who migrated through Epirus to Peloponnessos, Crete, and Aegean Sea islands, and eventually to Palestine. Also Celts descended from urn-field cultures of Rhein and Rhône, so Canaanites and Celts were at least cousins if not brothers. Dra-Gon comes from Greek meaning Huge-Snake: Lingual Dagon-Dragon connection is obvious, but they have symbolic link too. Snakes were symbols of healing gods fathered by Sun gods: Greek Apollo fathered Asclepius, Phoenician Toru-El fathered Eshmun, etc. Healer gods Asclepius and Eshmun both were depicted in dozens of reliefs, mosaics, and murals with snakes; ever since snakes were depicted as symbol animals of medicine sciences. Dragon (huge snake) was king of serpents, the healer god. Eshmun was called "Prince" as Eshmun was son of Sun god El: in Phoenician language "Prince" was "Ecooc": At Tartessos Carthaginians introduced Eshmun-Ecooc to Celts, and druids adopted Ecooc into druidic pantheon as Esus. Also Jesus Christ of Christianity based on Phoenician Eshmun. Roman Mercury, Greek Hermes-Asclepius, Egyptian Thoth, Phoenician Eshmun, Celtic Esus, and Canaanite Yeshu (i.e. Jesus Christ) were same jack-of-all-trades and healer deity.

In Phoenician pantheon Mary Magdala and Virgin Mary both belong to Kotharat-goddesses who were wives of El and mothers of all other deities in Phoenician pantheon. Jews denigrated Kotharat goddesses as whores.

El was Sun god, similar to Assyrian Shamash, Greek Apollo, Egyptian Ra, Celtic Bel etc. El was also known as Toru-El i.e. Bull God, what furthermore proves that El was Sun god, because Bull was symbol animal of Sun gods. Also in astrology Sun is exalted in Taurus.

Phoenicians knew planet Saturn with name Elus, what might have been equivalent to El. Saturn was also known as Black Sun, because it was outermost of bare-eyed visible planets. Saturn symbols were black cube (such Kaaba in Mecca) and six-pointed star i.e. Star of David i.e. Seal of Solomon.

Molok ("Molok" means "King") Baal Hammon was chief god of Carthaginians who were Phoenicians. Molok Baal Hammon i.e. Hadad was thunder god. Canaanites knew Hammon-Hadad as Yahweh i.e. YHWH. In Hebrew "Yahweh" i.e. "YHWH" is not noun per se but subjective meaning "Outburst of Force" which most obvious natural expression is thunder and thunderbolts. Thus Yahweh-YHWH belongs into group of thunder gods with Baal Hammon-Hadad, Indra, Jupiter, Taranis, Zeus etc. In astrology planet Jupiter was dedicated to thunder gods.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.158.238.162 (talkcontribs)

New material goes at the bottom, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Wikipedia does not engage in original research, please cite and summarize reliable and mainstream academic sources (as defined at this link). Also, familiarize yourself with False cognates, Parallelomania, and academia's rejection of reductionism in the study of the history and anthropology of religion; which are why all we go with books instead of random posts on this page. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Unclear Meaning[edit]

There is a sentence in the text that says: It is difficult to determine to what extent the 'false worship' which the prophets stigmatize is the worship of Yahweh under a conception and with rites that treated him as a local nature god, or whether particular features of gods more often given the title Ba‘al were consciously recognized to be distinct from Yahwism from the first. --- I sense that there is something wrong in the phrase "to be distinct from Yahwism from the first" but since I do not understand the meaning, I cannot correct it.190.81.202.250 (talk) 18:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


Introduction[edit]

The introduction gives a false view of the generally accepted meaning of the word Baal when used as a proper noun. Prior to the discovery of the Ugaritic texts it was sometimes thought that there were various and quite-separate gods called Baal. However, since the discovery of the Ugaritic texts it is generally accepted clear that there was one great Canaanite storm-and-fertility deity Baal-Hadad, and local manifestations of this one god. Day, J. (1992). Baal (Deity). In D. N. Freedman (Ed.), The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (Vol. 1, p. 547). New York: Doubleday. See also Encyclopaedia Judiaca despite the biblical tendency to avoid the use of the word as a proper name, it is now quite clear that by pre-Israelite times the term had become the usual name of the weather-god of Syria-Palestine. vol 3 pg 10.

In particular this sentence should be replaced by something based on the above. Nevertheless, few if any biblical uses of "Baal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven; most refer to a variety of local spirit-deities worshiped as cult images, each called baal and regarded in the Hebrew Bible in that context as a false god.Theredheifer (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2015 (UTC)