Talk:Babylon 5
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edit · history · watch · refresh  To-do list for Babylon 5: |
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[edit] IMPROVEMENTS NEEDED FOR WP:GAWell written
Factually Accurate
Broad Coverage
NPOV
Stable
Appropriate Images
Real-world context for articles dealing with fiction
Length
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 External links checked 2009-10-28. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 05:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
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Disambiguation links checked 2009-10-31. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 21:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC) |
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[edit] Incorrect summary of final episode of 5th season...
I just saw the episode "Sleeping in Light" the other day. It was actually supposed to be Lorien that came back and took Sheridan beyond the rim of the galaxy, not the First Ones. One can debate whether or not Lorien did actually come back or not, or whether it was a hallucination, but if you take everything on face value, it was definitely Lorien and not the First Ones. What would be accepted as an authoritative reference for this fact?
Also did someone want to say something about this episode being filmed at the end of 4th season, which is why we see Ivanova instead of Lochley, and that it was only after they were brought back for 5th season that they decided to postpone this ending and had to write and film a series of episodes to fit between the end of 4th season and "Sleeping in Light"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.83.93.16 (talk) 15:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'll take a look at the summary to try to fix your first point. As for the second point, the following is included in the "Writing" section:
Hope this clears things up. Steve T • C 07:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)The intended series finale, "Sleeping in Light," was filmed during season four as a precaution against cancellation. When word came that TNT had picked up Babylon 5, this was moved to the end of season five and replaced with a newly-filmed season four finale.
[edit] Critical Response
Seems to me that there ought to be a section detailing the critical response to Babylon 5. Might be easier said than done now that the series is 15 years old, but I'm open to thoughts on the matter. Stile4aly (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I was just reading this page and thought the exact same thing. All entertainment pages for movies, tv shows, albums, etc, should have a critical response section. Kansaikiwi (talk) 22:44, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Links to Full B5 episodes on Hulu and AOL Video
I think it is appropriate to add links to the B5 episodes on Hulu and AOL video. It seems to me the best way to understand a TV show is to watch it. The wiki page for LOST, Ghostbusters (the Movie) and others link their wiki page to (offical) streaming video on the web. I've reviewed the WP:EL page and I don't see any particular rule that my suggested links would violate.
Putting a link to the show serves the reader. I see it this way: Reading about tigers in an encyclopedia tells you a lot about tigers, but if you can read the article and go to the zoo and actually see a tiger you'll learn even more.
I don't think the goal of the B5 wiki page is to simply to write an encyclopedic article about B5. I believe the goal is to communicate to the visitor an understanding of what B5 is. Therefore, we should include links that allow people to watch the show. NoahWolfe (talk) 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- You are quite correct that it is appropriate to link to streamed episodes at Hulu and/or AOL video. In fact, WP:EL specifically says the page should link to such pages. From WP:ELYES:
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- What should be linked:
- 1. Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site, if any.
- 2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.
- 3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
- 4. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
- Seems very straightforward to me. I'm pretty astonished someone reverted your additions citing... WP:EL. The rabbit in the suitcase (talk) 16:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Template:B5 update
I think it can do for an update. I think it should look similar to this:
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Besides in some of the articles, the current template's like all over the place and this format will keep it stationary. FaithLehaneTheVampireSlayer 14:33, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
[edit] What is a TV Movie?
Well, well. I t have seen, that the section TV Movies (6.6 I think) lacks of consense somewhat. Sometimes "Voices in the Dark" appears there and there is noch summary on "To Live and Die in Starlight". I´d suggest the following: Remove "To Live and Die in Starlight", since it is the Pilot for TLOTR, which never made it into production. It´s like "The Gathering" an backdoor-pilot. The other movies are all somewhat feature-length episodes of the show, that where produced outside the seasons. What do you think? 87.174.193.47 (talk) 21:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- They are TV movies, though I don't think The Gathering should be there as it was simply a feature length pilot. The rest, other than "To Live and Die in Starlight" were actually specifically made for TV movies with a much higher budget than the TV episodes, even a double episode. In The Beginning even got a limited theatrical release. Canterbury Tail talk 01:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- That the four TNT Movies are the TV-Movies is pretty undoubtful. And I agree with your opinion about The Gathering (although the "special edition" could be considered to be "repackaged" into a TV-Movie, but that is not part of the debate.)
- About the legend of the rangers: I think, it´s not a B5-TV-Movie, but a series, that never made it beyond it´s feature-length pilot.
- And the Lost Tales bare pretty much the same definition. It is a DVD-Series, that only was produced until the second episode.
- Who agrees? Who doesn´t? Comments please? ;)
87.174.235.2 (talk) 23:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
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- Since jms himself referenced "The Gathering" as "The pilot *movie*" multiple times, I would call it a TV movie. ("We'll do the movie, and prove our point. When that's done, we get the full pickup.", "The B-5 movie is going to air this year, in the fall/winter.", "...the script for "The Gathering" pilot movie;...". Go with the authoritative source on this one. JoeD80 (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
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[edit] Childhood's End as an influence
The main article mentions "sagas" that were influential upon J.M. Straczynski's original B5 idea. As examples, it presents the Foundation novels, Lord of the Rings, Dune, and Childhood's End. This last book is a standalone novel, and not even a long one as novels go. Does it count as an example of a saga? If it is really true that this book was an influence on JMS, we might just rephrase the passage to something like "... science fiction and fantasy sagas such as the Foundation novels, The Lord of the Rings, Dune, as well as genre novels like Childhood's End..." SrAtoz (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Then again, please consider that Childhood's End appears only as an example. We might just as well simply remove it, without any loss to comprehension but with the advantages of uncluttering the text (therefore making it easier to read) and making it indisputably true. Opinions? SrAtoz (talk) 17:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I think it's clear that Childhood's End was an influence on Babylon 5. In particular there's the bit where the alien is revealed to be a devil, just as Kosh is revealed to be an angel in Babylon 5. --Howdybob (talk) 15:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- All those influences need to be referenced, we can't just make up what we think obviously influenced it, it needs to be referenced as third party sources. Canterbury Tail talk 15:38, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- jms has mentioned Childhood's End more than once, and this quote mentions it as a definite influence where jms says B5 is not influenced by Star Trek so much as sci-fi literature: "This show owes more conceptually to historical themes, and the kinds of sagas that come down to us in the Lensman books, Childhood's End, the Foundation books, Dune and others than any TV show, including and especially Star Trek." and also mentions in this quote about the reason for doing B5: "As a lifelong SF fan myself, I loved the sagas, the huge cycles: Foundation, Childhood's End, Lord of the Rings, Dune, and kept wondering, "Why hasn't someone done this for TV?" To which the only answer is, "Nobody's tried."" JoeD80 (talk) 20:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- All those influences need to be referenced, we can't just make up what we think obviously influenced it, it needs to be referenced as third party sources. Canterbury Tail talk 15:38, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Spin-off Section
There´s something odd about section 6. It is titled Plot Summery and is indeed a plot summary until section 6.7 Spin-offs, which is talking more about the Production, not plot of the spin-offs. I think the Spin-offs could make their own section (Section 7). I´d also suggest to remove The Legend of the Ranger as a TV-Movie, since it is technically not a Babylon 5 (series) TV Movie and is dealt with in the Spin-off Section. Maybe the TV-Movies section could also be expanded upon and be made it´s own Section (Section 7 with the Spin-offs becoming section 8). In that case the Plot Summery Section would really be simply about the Story of the Series.87.174.193.31 (talk) 21:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Original Concept
I haven't seen Babylon 5 yet, but I came across this review of The Scripts of JMS, Volume 15, where he talks about an original 10-year concept. This 15th volume might be worth a look. Remco47 (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] 2009 DVD Release
Most of the region 1 DVDs were published in 2004. I just notices new region 1 DVDs with a 2009 published date and much higher prices. Does anyone have any knowledge about any differences between 2004 and 2009? (and perhaps you would add this information to the main article?) --Neilrieck (talk) 14:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- When I researched this it seemed to me that one retailer had mis-priced the collections at 3x other retailers prices. While my evidence is weak (from a comment on that retailers web site), since the item is "merely a repackage" according to the retailer, I can't find a compelling reason to add the info to the main article. More info is needed from someone who has both releases to tell us if there is any significant or "notable" difference, it seems to me. --Aladdin Sane (talk) 18:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Time to resubmit article for WP:GA?
The last Good Article nomination failed. I see in the history that all the concerns were addressed except citations. Going through the article, I'm not finding a great deal more to cite except the 111 references already provided. I am finding that some stuff is not redundantly cited (such as the Emmy reference). Will adding redundant and repetitive cites help push the article toward GA? If 111 references are not enough, what is enough? I need more specifics to fix it. I've looked at other articles on the GA list, and some of them have considerably fewer (less than half) the number of references of this article. --Aladdin Sane (talk) 22:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Request change in citation style
Per Wikipedia:Ref#Citation_templates_and_tools I'm required to beg your consensus for changing cite style from horizontal to vertical for this article.
I hope to go through and clean up the references in the article for consistency and operation (there is one broken cite that I have fixed in my sandbox, please take a look). The reference I've already fixed is in the introductory paragraph to the 'Themes' section. Be sure to look at the code.
My problem is, every time I try to work on the cites, my brain melts because they're, to me, unreadable in horizontal format.
I've also just added a vertical cite to the article in section 'Soundtrack releases' so you can see how it looks.
I feel we may end up with a better article that is closer to GA if you consent to this request.
If you do consent, please let me know if it is OK to leave in unused parameters. I feel that leaving these in makes it easier for future editors to further improve the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aladdin Sane (talk • contribs) 03:01, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Gee, thanks SineBot. (Slaps forehead with dead trout.) —Aladdin Sane (talk) 03:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK, then, I'll take silence as acquiescence in this case and begin. Fixed cites #1 and #2, and 3 cites in the Themes intro paragraph. I think this flag from the article edit page is worth noting: "This page is 101 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See Wikipedia:Article size." Also, I found the proper cite for my trout for future reference (just in case), WP:TROUT. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 07:02, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- Updated cites #3 and #4. Cite #3, Hugo Awards, has been split into 2 cites because the web cite template does not seem to let me do 2 URL's in one cite (if you know how to do this, please let me know). The splitting and adding of cites may cause any of the above or below messages to be inaccurate in the future. Stats: Page is at 103 kilobytes, Cites is at 115 unique cites. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 00:31, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think that cites #6–#9 are finished improving (I converted one from 'cite newsgroup' to 'cite web' to be able to provide more info). That's one section down and 12 to go. I am about to embark on the mysteries of cite #10 - the fuel injection system. No wait, actually I mean the 'cite video' template. Cites remains at 115 unique, size of article is now 108 kb. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 03:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] References at end of sentences?
Related to the above section, does anybody mind my moving references to the end of sentences to increase readability? Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
The pilot film premiered on February 22, 1993. The regular series aired from January 26, 1994 and ran for five full seasons, winning two Hugos for Best Dramatic Presentation[3] and two Emmy awards—for makeup and visual effects.[4]
Becomes:
The pilot film premiered on February 22, 1993. The regular series aired from January 26, 1994 and ran for five full seasons, winning two Hugos for Best Dramatic Presentation and two Emmy awards—for makeup and visual effects.[3][4]
Any 'nay' votes on the issue? —Aladdin Sane (talk) 20:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9
I am puzzled by the statement "Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine diverged and took different paths". On the contrary, Deep Space 9 increasingly imitated Babylon 5's format (season-long story lines, for the first time in STAR TREK) and theme (a multispecies war engulfing nearly all the known races of the story) CharlesTheBold (talk) 04:04, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed, though this could be seen as an opinion on our part. The sentences make absolutely no sense, however, based on the actual history of the two shows and the facts brought forth in the article (B5 came first, period). For example, there was no "divergent path" as that assumes they started in the same place. There are other problems with that poorly constructed paragraph - I have [removed] it entirely. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 16:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
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- Concur - I've been having problems with the section ever since it got added. I wasn't sure what to do about it. The DS9 "controversy" sub-section needs to stay, I feel (because it is backed up by some pretty good references IMHO), but it starts to head back away from the GA 'too long' problem that was fixed. It also increases by about 5% the cites already existing that need fixing for GA.
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- To fix or at least ameliorate the problem, I would like to kill the last paragraph in the DS9 sub-section as well, and maybe do some good for the length problem. My argument: The DS9 sub-section is about an "annoying and notable but not litigated" COPYVIO by Paramount, and hopefully well-enough sourced to stick in the article (after all it came from the DS9 article in the first place). The last paragraph is about "competition", not "the controversy". Unfortunately, it does not hit "notability" within the article, in my opinion, due to the article's already extreme length. Plus I feel it is inaccurate. It demotes B5's ratings from 5.0-6.8 seen in cites sources at the top of the Broadcast History section, to 3-4% in an un-cited assertion at the end of the section. I noted that the editor who originally inserted the DS9 sub-section also seems to have inserted this subtle dig earlier in the section (in the now-2nd paragraph), "...approximately 1% lower than direct competitor Star Trek DS9,..." (see diff, you have to squint really hard to find the insertion). Again, unsourced, ahem. I note the editor seems to have been previously blocked for something Nielsen-related.
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- On another note, to all the editors currently interested in the section, there was an article on this at WP, but it got zapped. See "Talk:Babylon_5/Archive_2#Similarities_between...". That article still exists, in all its poorly-sourced-but-interesting glory at Similarities between B5 and DS9. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 17:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I killed the paragraph. Found I had to add a sentence for the unfamiliar reader, summing up what actually happened. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 22:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- On another note, to all the editors currently interested in the section, there was an article on this at WP, but it got zapped. See "Talk:Babylon_5/Archive_2#Similarities_between...". That article still exists, in all its poorly-sourced-but-interesting glory at Similarities between B5 and DS9. —Aladdin Sane (talk) 17:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
