Talk:Bahá'í Faith

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Archives (Index)
Archive 1 02/03 – 08/04 Archive 2 08/04 – 01/05
Archive 3 01/05 – 02/05 Archive 4 02/05 – 06/05
Archive 5 03/05 – 07/05 Archive 6 07/05 – 10/05
Archive 7 10/05 – 11/05 Archive 8 11/05 – 12/05
Archive 9 12/05 – 04/06 Archive 10 04/06 – 07/06
Archive 11 08/06 – 09/06 Archive 12 07/06 – 12/06
Archive 13 12/06 – 02/07 Archive 14 02/07 – 03/07
Archive 15 03/07 – 12/08 Archive 16 03/08 – 12/10
Archive 17 05/08 – Archive 18
Biographies for discussion of material relating to the history of Baha'i figures
Picture discussion of the display of Baha'u'llah's photograph
Request for comment discussion generated by a RfC of Feb 2005
Off Topic discussions removed per wikipedia policy (Wikipedia is not a discussion board)

Image box idea[edit]

Why not have an image box at the top of this article with major figures such as Abdul'baha, 2 members of the UHJ (one from South America one from Africa), Ruhyyeh Khanum, Mona, Vahid and Shoghi Effendi (and others). The present picture of the UHJ is nice but I would leave it for the Administration section. This would make the article more informative in my opinion. (talk) 08:38, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

+Some Europeans such as Italy's late Giacheri may be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I disagree, the religion is not about a singular person. Right now the head of the religion is the House of Justice and in my opinion it is the best picture to be at the top. -- 16:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
WIth that line of reasoning you must put the picture of Boby then :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I also disagree - a picture of the Universal House of Justice seems very appropriate. --Smkolins (talk) 21:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

French version of this article[edit]

Someone should please check the equivalent in French because it is different in terms of wording and WP:lead.. (talk) 11:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Graph for administrative section[edit]

You need a graph to explain all the elections and administrative levels (including protection and teaching Institutions), much like the work of your 'friends' here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

That would be Bahá'í_administration#Structure. --Smkolins (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Then it's missing the most important part regarding HOW these institutions get elected by the Baha'is in the first place. My 2 cents as always. (talk) 09:04, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

ok - the problem is that the topic of the Baha'i Faith is huge and putting it all in one big article would make it unreadably huge. That's why there are links to other articles. The balance of *this* article is governed by the priorities of reliable sources of this part of the larger picture, the hub of a network of related articles. Individual people may find one or another topic more important from their perspective but the balance is what the sources say. --Smkolins (talk) 12:15, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Sections and structure[edit]

The section about the founder of this cult has 2 paragraphs (or so) while the last section about the persecution in Egypt is of equal length. Only need to say: REALLY?

No need to be scared to sign your comment, even with an IP or Wikiname! - no one is going to track you down, honest! In assessing any other article, would you feel justified in drawing (unstated) conclusions on the relative lengths of more or less unrelated sections? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:32, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
you have ALWAYS to be careful with people who edit this article my mom says. (talk) 03:49, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Besides, you should know (as a good Baha'i you are - as per your WP userpage) that you need to get the approval of your NSA for your edits here (since it is a form of 'publication' about this cult.)!
To answer your question the best i can, the whole thing is carried on the shoulder of one person initially and it is of utmost importance. I know you disagree since you don't even like his picture. Basically you are inviting the whole world to follow a 'superhuman' with a long beard & with oriental dress who looks UNIQUE. (talk) 04:13, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Serves me right for answering a silly question, I suppose. If you've been reading my page you know very well I DON'T claim to be a particularly "good" Baha'i - and some regular editors here might very well be "worse" Baha'is than me (never met a bad Catholic or a "non-religious" Jew?) - as if that's got anything to do with anything. Actually this article is by no means an official, authorised one - and many of our sources would not be "approved" at an official level. Like every article in Wikipedia, conscientious editors (of whatever persuasion) simply try to keep it balanced and fair. I apply (I hope) exactly the same standards here as with the many articles in completely unconnected fields (aeroplanes, music) that I edit. the point is that this article isn't (or at least shouldn't be) an invitation to embrace the Faith - but a quick reference, mainly for people with no such intent at all. In this context, current events, like the persecution of Baha'is in various countries, might well be of more immediate interest than anything else, and therefore worthy of more detailed coverage. But honestly, if you're really disturbed, or even swayed, by things like the comparative length of a paragraph or a Middle-Eastern man with a Muslim background looking like, well, a Middle-Eastern man with a Muslim background, then what can I say? Middle-Eastern people with Muslim backgrounds sort of have a bad name nowadays - at least you can't say the article makes any bones about this (and other "inconvenient" facts). Or is this really all about the attitude to "the picture". As I think you probably know, Baha'is "like" Baha'u'llah's picture very much indeed, which is exactly why they don't like it flashed around too freely. This might sound strange, but there again, there it is. Be a dull world if we were all the same. There was a very long discussion about including "the" picture, and a consensus of Wiki editors (most of them NOT Baha'is at all, much less good ones) decided that Wiki should display it, but discreetly, at the bottom of Baha'u'llah's specific article. And there it remains, as I'm sure you know, in spite of most Baha'is being very much opposed to it being there at all.
A bit of advice from someone old enough to be a grandfather to most of the people here, if not you personally. Especially when it comes to politics or religion, being positive about what you like is a lot nicer than becoming obsessed with what you DON'T like.
Now a Wiki talk page should be very specifically about improving the article concerned, and none of this is - so it might be better continued (if at all) on my talk page (or yours, if you have one?) --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:20, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
And the points to that end about balance of the article content and linking to relevant "main" articles are exactly why things are the way they are and earned "Good article" status - a procedure of wikipedia review for following the highest quality guidelines wikipedia has. --Smkolins (talk) 12:10, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Yet, you have just edited this article according to my comment. Thank you! (talk) 16:56, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
and you misconstrue my purpose in doing so. And nesting comments across time interleaved between comments as above and below tends to mix up the points being addresses. --Smkolins (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Yet you do the same here How funny you are! :) (talk) 02:06, 2 June 2014 (UTC) & please do tell us your purpose then (lol)
& Did i upset anyone with my comments above? I think Boby is cool. I like his dress in fact. (talk) 17:15, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

"Baha'i" in other languages[edit]

There is no more justification for including the name of the Faith in other languages in the lead here than (say) in the article for Coffee or Basketwork. We lead with the name in English because this is the English Wikipedia - the Arabic is there because it IS an Arabic word, when all is said and done. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:20, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I was going to revert it myself but I have decided to propose things in the talk page first.— (talk)
And I agree with Soundofmusical's points. The methodology wikipedia uses for access to the other languages is the sidebar of linked articles in other languages. --Smkolins (talk) 12:06, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Official written agreement between the BWC and the State of Israel[edit]

I know such accord exists and has been signed in the 1990s between the Baha'i World Centre (BWC) in haifa, Israel and the State of Israel. I think it is a material fact and should be mentioned in the Administration section (and please don't tell me this accord does not exist!) (talk) 12:04, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Like every country doesn't regulate religions? Come on! For a church to marry people in the United States they have to be registered with the Department of State of whatever state they are in - filing paperwork back and forth, paying registration costs, etc. Yet I don't see entries in wikipedia articles noting the registration status and details of each religion and institution per country. Occasionally there is some reference to when a religion is DENIED the ability to be registered and recognized and that has been mentioned in some place for Baha'is as well as others. But aside from that and as far as reliable sources I can only find a couple brief mentions in Smith's "A Concise Encyclopedia" and one newspaper story about the Baha'is having an agreement with the state of Israel. It is not notable in the reviews of the Faith I can find.--Smkolins (talk) 16:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The purpose of this accord is not what you say (obviously you don't know since you have not read it). It is more like establishing the relations of the Vatican with Italy, which is to be updated as the status of BWC itself evolves. It is a kind of "seat accord". Why this is unknown to most Baha'is is a mystery all by itself :) . The idea is that BWC will obtain an international status (within Israel) sometime in the future much like the Holy See. When the Secretary General of the BWC says that Baha'is are not treated favorably by Israel is somewhat 'incorrect' to say the least. (talk) 16:37, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Verifiability, Reliable sources and Notability are Wikipedia policies. Original research and synthesis are not permissible. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 16:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry I can't help you with the verifiability part since the UHJ itself does not want to share this document with you! Regards, (talk) 16:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Agreeing with Jeff3000 that notability through reliable sources is the standard you seem to be referring to other standards of information. --Smkolins (talk) 19:30, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Regarding notability, please refer to the article at Holy See. It has one section devoted to it entirely.

Finally, "Original research or synthesis"? not really, but again you need to read the original document for yourself FIRST before judging. (talk) 17:09, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

"regarding notability"is being spoken of, between us, in two different ways. I'm addressing if reliable sources discuss it and they don't. You are suggesting the topic is, but if sources dont then your opinion is not with the norm. --Smkolins (talk) 19:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
You have a problem with the fact that this document exists and the Universal House of Justice of this sect does NOT want to share its content publicly. It is not a question of 'my belief to be in line with the norms'! You are being risible :) (talk) 02:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
You err in several ways all at the same time. And going into personal attacks doesn't help.--Smkolins (talk) 10:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

NB: I do have this document in possession and its authenticity is NOT disputed in any way, shape or form. At this point, if i were you, i would ask the advise of your Baha'i Internet agency before digging a greater hole for yourself! (talk) 02:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, you err in several ways at the same time.--Smkolins (talk) 10:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Again, verifiability, Reliable sources and Notability are Wikipedia policies. Original research, synthesis and self-published sources are not permissible. Also, Wikipedia is not a forum; if you wish to discuss the existence or non-existence of a documented, without sources, please do that at a forum, or on your talk pages. Regards -- Jeff3000 (talk) 12:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I very much doubt the document concerned exists, and, further, I suspect you know very well it doesn't exist, or alternatively does not bear anything like the construction you put on it here, or you would be able to give us a source. "Stirring" as we call it in Australia can be great fun, but Wikipedia (especially the talk pages of articles) is a bad place to try it, because we are constrained to take you seriously ("assuming good faith" we call it) however fantastical you become. There is in fact (keep my response to you serious) a whole article detailing a number of official Iranian government accusations of this general nature. The fact that this particular charge has NOT been raised at an official level (perhaps it will be soon?) when so many remarkable charges HAVE been raised in this context does make it "original research" from a Wikipedia point of view. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:23, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Whatever is claimed or not I think it is pretty clear this interaction is not aimed at improving the article. --Smkolins (talk) 12:52, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I got this document from the NSA itself. It would take an email to your UHJ to confirm this; yet you continue to dig a whole for yourself with all your unfounded arguments and personal accusations. (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, verifiability, Reliable sources and Notability are Wikipedia policies. Original research, synthesis and self-published sources are not permissible. Also, Wikipedia is not a forum; if you wish to discuss the existence or non-existence of a documented, without sources, please do that at a forum, or on your talk pages. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
If the editor who claims to have the document can produce it, or indicate somewhere where it is available, then it would be extremely useful if he would either produce it, or provide a link to a website where it can be found. That would allow others to determine if the document exists, exactly what it says, and how important the information to be sourced from it is, which would help determine which article it would go into. I am in no way an expert on the state of Israel, but I would have to assume that if a democratic country like Israel were to have been a party to such a document, that its official records would contain a copy of it. Otherwise, all I see are to date unfounded assertions regarding something whose very existence has yet to be definitively established.
If the document or explicit reference to it in independent reliable sources cannot be produced, then it seems to me that further discussion of it on this page would not be particularly relevant to the development of this article, and a violation of WP:TPG, and also probably WP:TE as well, and such violations can reasonably in some cases lead to some form of sanctions. Therefore, I believe it is in the best interests of the editor, and the project itself, if he produces a copy of the document that others can see, or drops the subject altogether and does not continue to misuse this page in what seems a counterproductive way in violation of WP:TPG. John Carter (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)