Talk:Bal Thackeray

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Whitewashing?[edit]

Since 4th July this article has been steadily whittled down by a few IPs, eg 202.122.20.254, 125.22.243.174 , and many well-sourced but contentious sections have been removed. The article was much better before, so I've reverted back to before this happened. If those removing info have concerns they should note them here on the talk page. Thanks --78.86.25.78 (talk) 03:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted irrelevant talk


This page is for discussion about the article, not personal opinions Gobade.abhay1 (talk) 13:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Mr Thakeray is upposedly a Bharati(Indian)nationalist who, and whose party, promotes Bharati identity and religious growth to the exclusion of all foreign influences. I f that's the case then why allow non-Bharati linguistic elements in his name, his party title and his use of official national language: Saheb is a word of Arabic origin and Urdu usage; Thacheray is English spelling and a famous UK surname:Hindu is Arabic/Farsi name of people of Sindh valley derives from Sindhu; Hindi is old word derived from Hindavi (initial term for Urdu/Hindustani; Hindustan is name given to north India by Muslim rulers from Central Asia, Persia and Afghanistan - Hind has been used by Arabs. My point is made.Moarrikh (talk) 23:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 10:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

cdvsgsgehthrry5ju---- Bal ThackerayBalasaheb Thackeray – Move to a much popular and commonly recognised and referred name. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 07:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Whether you search the web, news or books, "Bal" is overwhelmingly more common than "Balasaheb". This ngram is just one example. Favonian (talk) 10:35, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Short name in title, Full name in lede. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose:People outside Maharashtra may wonder, who's Balasaheb Thackeray. Full name in the lead section will be better, as in the case of Eminem. -- ♪Karthik♫ ♪Nadar♫ 02:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Bal Thackeray at 70th Master Dinanath Mangeshkar Awards (1) (cropped).jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Bal Thackeray at 70th Master Dinanath Mangeshkar Awards (1) (cropped).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012
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This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 14:10, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Bihar connection[edit]

I saw this: Thackeray family itself belonged to Bihar and had settled in Dhar in western Madhya Pradesh from where they migrated to Mumbai. I am not sure if this information is correct. In case, it is correct, it may be incorporated in the article at an appropriate place so as to value add to the content of this article. Comments are invited. --Bhadani (talk) 03:09, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

You can read the writings of Keshav Thackeray online. Digvijay Singh refers to Prabodhanakara Thakare Samagra Vanmaya (Volume 5, Page 45). The Volume 5 contains 3 books, and the text referred by Digvijay Singh is part of the book Gramanyachya Sadhyant Itihas Arthat Nokarashiche Banda ("A Comprehensive History of Rebellion or the Revolt of the Bureaucrats"). It talks about the Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhu (CKP) caste, to which the family belongs. Page 45 mentions that the CKPs were originally from Magadha; to escape from the misrule of the king Mahapadma Nanda, they migrated to Nepal, Kashmir and "Talbhopal" (I doubt this is same as Bhopal in Madhya Pradesh). It goes on to say that a CKP member with the surname "Thakre" established a small estate near Chittod.
This text doesn't say anything about the present-day Thackeray family, which is mentioned in the autobiography Mazhi Jeevangatha (Volume 1). The earliest ancestor that this autobiography talks about was apparently a kiladar of the Dhodap fort. As for Prabodhankar Thackrey's connections outside Maharashtra, it states that he studied in Dewas (in present-day Madhya Pradesh) and Kolkata.
To summarize, Digvijay is right only if by "Thackrey family" he means their ancestors who lived more than two thousand years ago during the reign of the Nanda dynasty.
utcursch | talk 22:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarifications. In that case, Digvijay is talking of ancestors who lived 100 generations before. I apprehend, if Digvijay stretches human ancestors too far, he may find that we all were apes :) --Bhadani (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
User:Kumarila seems to have an agenda posting the allegations against Thackeray's. He/She has reverted this page and has indulged in edit warring on Raj Thackeray wikipage too. WBRSin (talk) 14:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
I have similar apprehensions as pointed by WBRSin. --Bhadani (talk) 18:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Fascist[edit]

Change the lead from nationalist to fascist. Because he was aggressive and did not bother about protocols. So, he correctly fits the definition of a fascist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C28:194:520:5E26:AFF:FEFE:8C40 (talk) 05:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Erm no.
"Fascist" is just your view. Wikipedia maintains neutrality. WP:NPV

--Tovojolo (talk) 11:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Cultural Reference[edit]

In the cultural reference section there is a line referring that the Sarkar movie is based on the Thackeray family. However from an interview from the Director of the movie (Ram Gopal Varma) to rediff, he calims it is not. The link to the page.

Yes check.svg Done(Lihaas (talk) 05:41, 20 November 2012 (UTC)).

Edit request on 17 November 2012[edit]

Death 59.94.107.86 (talk) 11:37, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed per this and other sources. Update pending. Rivertorch (talk) 11:58, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Already done Rivertorch (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 November 2012[edit]

Bal Thackray died on 17th November 2012 at his recedence (MATOSHREE) in East Bandra - Mumbai - India at 3.33PM due to a cardiac arrest. The team of doctors looking after his health tried to revieve but finally declaired him dead. His body will be placed in Shivaji Park on 17th November 2012 for his huge fan follower (Shiv Sainik) before cremation. 86.51.170.146 (talk) 05:42, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Sorry, no. I can correct your many spelling and grammatical errors, but the style, tone, and level of detail are inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. Reliable sourcing is also a prerequisite. Rivertorch (talk) 06:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 November 2012[edit]

The Birth year is 1927 not 1926, please make the correction on Wiki.

Digamber.tawde (talk) 11:20, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - the reference currently in the article says: "Born on January 23, 1926, Bal Keshav Thackeray, popularly called Balasaheb, started out as a cartoonist for the Free Press Journal.". This is sourced to dnaindia.com. Do you have a better source that leads you to request this change, or a reason to believe the existing one is inaccurate? Begoontalk 12:18, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request (2) on 19 November 2012[edit]

On 19 November 2012 the Times of India reported of a 21 year old woman being arrested for questioning the appropriatness of the shutting down of the Mumbai city centre for the funeral of Bal Thackeray. The news artical commented on the recent sensitivity in India about criticism of politicians and suggested that the arrest of the woman was a way of suppressing freedom of speech in India. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/21-year-old-girl-held-for-Facebook-post-questioning-Mumbais-Bal-Thackeray-shutdown/articleshow/17276979.cms — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.26.187 (talk) 11:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - also, a side note, on your interpretation of that source - it doesn't "suggest that the arrest of the woman was a way of suppressing freedom of speech in India", it refers to recent events "sparking criticism in turn from freedom of speech campaigners.", so the source does not give this opinion, it reports that some campaigners were critical.

Regardless of that, I think there would need to be consensus for this edit, even if altered to properly reflect the source, so we should wait for any other editor comments. Thanks. Begoontalk 13:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Bias?[edit]

Obviously this could be very contentious, but the newer updates to this article appear very biased to me.

The section on responses to his death only has responses that are positive. Meanwhile, there are many people here who are very upset by the continuing illegal bandh, and some are arrested for espousing such views (eg. http://www.business-standard.com/generalnews/news/two-held-for-fb-post-questioning-bandh-for-thackerays-funeral/80893/). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.172.182.27 (talk) 13:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

To editor Begoon, what do you mean by consensus. There is a statement of fact that the Mumbai police arrested a young woman for posting a criticism of the funeral shutting down Mumbai on her facebook page. This fact has been reported on a number of reputable news sites. I did not say the Times of indida said that this was an exacple of suppression of freedom of speech I said it suggested this may be the case. I do not think this is misrepresenting what the Times of India wrote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.97.245.84 (talk) 03:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I simply mean that there needs to be agreement amongst editors here that addition of this content will improve the article. With current events rapidly unfolding we need to be sure that what we add to an article has lasting notability. I can't add it for you until such consensus exists (and the wording of the addition is agreed). I'm certainly not saying nothing can be added, that will depend on consensus - the word consensus is a blue link, and is explained in terms of how it is used here at the linked page.
I realise it can be frustrating when you are a new editor, but this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, so there is no deadline, and we can comfortably wait until there is agreement on the right course of action. Your edit has in no way been rejected, just opened up for discussion by other regular editors to this article. Begoontalk 03:51, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Just an addendum about the Times of India: It does not "suggest" that anything "may be the case" - it reports that there has been "criticism" from "freedom of speech campaigners". That's all it says about that, and we need to be accurate in how we report what sources have said. We cannot include our opinion of what we think they meant. Begoontalk

Update:If you read the "Criticisms" section now - you will see that another editor has added some details which I copyedited for grammar and flow. If you want to propose a change to that text, please do so. Thanks. Begoontalk 04:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I merged that in, though i still doubt its notablte enugh to post here. Perhaps its more fr the censorship in indi a page than this, but the article about the individual is well out of scope for a minor incident as this. (i left it in for now, however)
Also, pe r the OP, there was no bandh called, legal or illegal. No one forced closed or taxis of the road (theyre private), the trains./buses were running(Lihaas (talk) 05:45, 20 November 2012 (UTC)).
It's certainly lengthy content for what is, as you say, probably going to be viewed as minor with a little bit of hindsight. When events are current like this, this is the way of it - I suspect it will 'evolve' into suitable content as the article is edited, but we should make sure it doesn't become very WP:UNDUE. And, to the original poster - this process of discussion and consensus building, happening here, is what I meant by consensus. It's how this encyclopedia is built. Begoontalk 06:02, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

To Bigoon. What you have reported as a minor incident (the arrest of 2 women for critcising the funeral) has started what may be a major debate about the power of Shiv Sena. For example, on 21/11/2012 the Australian newspapre Sydney Morning Herald wrote:

"Analysts and the media are slamming the Maharashtra state government for what they said was a flagrant misuse of the law and an attempt to curb freedom of expression. The arrests were seen as a move by police to prevent any outbreak of violence by supporters of Bal Thackeray, a powerful Hindu fundamentalist politician who died Saturday.

"We are living in a democracy, not a fascist dictatorship," Markandey Katju, a former Supreme Court justice who now heads the Press Council of India, wrote in a protest letter to the chief minister of Maharashtra. Katju demanded that the state government suspend the police officers who had ordered the arrests and prosecute them...

Analysts say it was as sense of fear that kept millions of people off the streets of the bustling city on Sunday. Nearly 20,000 policemen patrolled the deserted streets, mainly because of the violent history of the Shiv Sena...

But the thuggish behavior was in evidence Monday when a mob of Thackeray's supporters stormed the orthopedic clinic, destroying its operating rooms and much of its equipment. Nurses and patients fled but no one was hurt.

The Mumbai arrests came barely two months after the Maharashtra police arrested a political cartoonist on sedition charges for drawings that mocked corruption in the Indian government. The charges were dropped and the cartoonist is out on bail. Earlier this year, a university professor was arrested in the state of West Bengal for forwarding an email cartoon that caricatured the chief minister there."

Analysts say it was as sense of fear that kept millions of people off the streets of the bustling city on Sunday. Nearly 20,000 policemen patrolled the deserted streets, mainly because of the violent history of the Shiv Sena."

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/outrage-in-india-over-arrests-for-facebook-post-20121120-29o68.html

You culd find numeous reputable international and Indian media outlets saying the same. Bigoon, your opinion about this being a minor matter is oviously not shared by the mainstream media or the Press Council of India. In the interests of balanced editing on this point I suggest you rethink your position — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.26.187 (talkcontribs)

Please don't remove the comments of other users from talk pages. I have restored them. Thank you for the information and the suggestion. I'm afraid I don't have a "position" to rethink. I have no interest in a long circular debate on this subject, having initially visited the page simply to attempt to help with an edit request. I'm sorry if you have not found my input helpful. I hope you can achieve an acceptable consensus in whatever discussion may develop here with other editors. Good luck. Begoontalk 10:44, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Are you watching the indian media (IP)? The issue is not bradened to a wide debate on the matter. That said, mention of the PTI/jusitice dude could be included as a eaction here since hes a notable person.Also an article on the side of the international news in an ausie paper is not exectly notable for this issue on WP.(Lihaas (talk) 08:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)).

Recentism?[edit]

A casual glance at the article shows that most dates are in the 2000s or at most the 90s. I feel that the article does have sufficient content about his career and activities in the early period, the 60s, 70s and 80s. In particular, we need lot more details about things like the anti-south India movement, the mill workers issues and the Sena govt. in the 90s. I might try doing some of this myself, if I can find time, but I would appreciate if someone else lends a hand. Thanks, SPat talk 16:53, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, particularl with the south indian issue. Though the other arguement would be isnt that more for the SHiv Sena article than him personally? In the days before he died there was a lot more POV and criticism. I cleaned some of that up, but your right that his early political activity needs mre (even the hournalistic bits)(Lihaas (talk) 08:44, 21 November 2012 (UTC)).

FB comments and arrest[edit]

The incident about FB comments and arrest is not directly related to Bal Thackeray. IMO, it is an WP:UNDUE in the funeral because it is not related to it too. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. So removing. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:28, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 November 2012[edit]

Add the following to the xenophobia section.

On March 6, 2008, Bal Thackeray issued an editorial titled 'Ek Bihari, Sau Bimari' (One Bihari, Hundred illnesses) in Saamna, Shiv Sena's political mouthpiece, saying Biharis were 'an unwanted lot' in Maharashtra. Sources: [1][2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.80.21 (talkcontribs) 23 November 2012

Protection of this article has expired. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 November 2012[edit]

In 5.3 Funeral, please change "...People like Thackeray are born and die daily, and one should not observe a bandh for that on Facebook." to the following comment: “With all respect, every day, thousands of people die, but still the world moves on,”read the message posted by 21-year old Shaheen Dhada and ‘liked’ by 20-year old Renu Srinivasan from Palghar in the neighbouring Thane district, her lawyer Sudheer Gupta told The Hindu. The post continued: “Just due to one politician died a natural death, everyone just goes bonkers. They should know, we are resilient by force, not by choice. When was the last time, did anyone showed some respect or even a two-minute silence for Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Azad, Sukhdev or any of the people because of whom we are free-living Indians? Respect is earned, given, and definitely not forced. Today, Mumbai shuts down due to fear, not due to respect.” [1] 'Mumbai shuts down due to fear, not respect', The Hindu, November 19, 2012

Justification for Edit: The present comment is untrue and a summary of what maybe meant and not verbatim, as there were no names mentioned in the Facebook post of the Palghar girl, as stated in The Hindu article from where the above-mentioned quotation is given. Prikor123 (talk) 11:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Some sources do mention the name. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The content in question appears to have been moved to Death of Bal Thackeray. I see no mention of names of living persons in conjunction with this quote on that article, so I see no action required. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Article protected[edit]

This article has been protected from editing for three days to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution (WP:DR). Mark Arsten (talk) 00:49, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/mumbai-shuts-down-due-to-fear-not-respect/article4111814.ece