Talk:Baltic states

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Baltic States and Occupation of the Baltic States[edit]

This is very biased writing, which may be acceptable in a political treatise, but not in a historical document. The use of sarcasm is unacceptable.

Example 1: In June 1940, the Red Army occupied the whole territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" the USSR in August 1940 and were annexed into it as the Estonian SSR, the Latvian SSR, and the Lithuanian SSR.

Example 2: The new Soviet-installed governments in the Baltic states began to align their policies with current Soviet practices. According to the prevailing doctrine in the process, the old "bourgeois" societies were destroyed so that new socialist societies, run by loyal Soviet citizens, could be constructed in their place.

(58.175.202.174 (talk) 03:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)) Helen Webberley helenw@bigpond.net.au

Helen, both your examples are factual recountings of events with no interpretation attached. In particular, your first example doesn't even mention that election results were released to the press in London from Moscow by Tass, accidentally, and published, 24 12 hours before the "election". Furthermore, there is no "sarcasm" in either of the examples you provide. The "quotes" are appropriate.VЄСRUМВА  ♪  13:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

note[edit]

Please note that the German version of this page includes Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) as part of the Baltic states. This should be included in the English version since this is not a international regional union such as Benelux, but rather simply a international region. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Realistically speaking, regardless of what other Wikipedia versions might contain, it would seem rather far-fetched to include Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) as part of the Baltic states. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

considering Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) the capital city of former Prussia nowadyas the capital city of Kaliningrad Oblast in Russia a "Baltic state" is flat out redicilous. Somenoe should just fix the German version.--Termer (talk) 21:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Konigsberg was never considered a Baltic State--not every country bordering on the Baltic Sea is automatically a Baltic "State". VЄСRUМВА  ♪  04:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually the real problem is the joyous welcoming of Nazis and widespread participation by the locals in the annihilation of Jews--alas, Nazi propaganda. VЄСRUМВА  ♪  04:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
That statement is somewhat confusing. Can you elaborate a little on what you meant? I'm thrown off track since we were discussing Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) here. Dr. Dan (talk) 13:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I ran the Baltische Staaten article through a translator. I did not see mention of Konigsberg, but I did find the issue I mentioned. Perhaps I misunderstood, the issue mentioned here is in the German article on Konigsberg? VЄСRUМВА  ♪  16:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
For some reason the German link from the "Baltic States" links to Baltikum. This maybe the cause for the confusion. Just the same, Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) isn't part of them. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Correct on both counts. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 16:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The German link would be more accurate linking this article to Die Baltische Staaten article in the German WP. It seems to be more appropriate. The link would be better served using that existing article rather than Das "Baltikum". Dr. Dan (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I updated the link. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 03:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Interesting how my point led to this whole conversation. Where is the definition of Baltic States? Is it set in stone somewhere on a legal document? I think not, therefore it is up for discussion. And Vecrumba, you have problems. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter what German WP may consider to be the "Baltic states", this is English wikipedia and thus names are dependent upon common English usage, see WP:COMMONNAME. BTW, I suggest you refactor your comment regarding Vecrumba per WP:NPA. --Martintg (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually no it is not strait forward, for instance the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on the "Baltic States" says that Finland and Poland could also be included in the definition of Baltic States. As I initially stated, the Baltic States are not an international regional union such as Benelux, but rather simply a international region, therefore there is debate. e.g. is Andorra a southern-European, or a western-European nation? And I find Vercrumba's comment (denial of history) offensive, so I will not "refactor" (not a real word) it. If he wishes to apologize to me that'd be fine though, because my Russian grandfather fought to save his Latvian family. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 05:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia Britannica says "The name has sometimes been used to include Finland and Poland" otherwise its straight forward: "Republics of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, situated on the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea." If anybody wants to say it in this article on Wikipedia that Poland (Finland is already mentioned) is also sometimes called a "Baltic state", whats the big deal, just go ahead.--Termer (talk) 03:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
There's no big deal here. This is not about the Baltic Mare Nostrum. Termer, go ahead and include Germany, Denmark, and Sweden too if you think it's important. It would be much harder to include Norway but you could give it a try. And why should Russia be excluded? As anon 216.99.54.62 told Vecrumba, his Russian grandfather fought to save his Latvian family. Besides it too borders the Baltic Sea. And dear anon, I imagine your grandfather did this in 1944-45. What was he doing for Vecrumba's family in June 1940? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

May I clarify this confusing moment? Actually, there are two definitions (or terms) in Russian: "Прибалтика" (Pribaltika) and "Прибалтийские республики" (Pribaltiyskie Respubliki). Both of them were mentioned in this article. The problem, however, is that they are not equivalent. The first definition does include Kaliningrad Oblast as well as Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. The second definition, since literally it means "Baltic Republics", includes those three states only, but does not include Kaliningrad Oblast. So, while the first definition belongs to territory "at Baltic", the second one belongs to aggregate of states, which entirely locate on this territory "at Baltic". Both terms cannot be translated from Russian to English directly, the closest translation is "Baltic States". But we have another problem here, because "Baltic States" is the direct translation of another Russian definition "Балтийские страны" (Baltiyskie strani). This third definition includes all Baltic states without any exception. So, the word "Прибалтика" was mentioned in this article in little bit incorrect context, this is not an exact equivalent to "Baltic States". In fact "Прибалтика" includes three Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) and Kaliningrad Oblast as well. That's why German Wiki mentioned Kaliningrad Oblast in the original version of article (I am not sure if it still does). With respect, Oleg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.167.74 (talk) 05:52, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

an ancient but - useless argumentation whilst http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact is not quoted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.130.47.86 (talk) 03:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

title[edit]

Whomever chose "Baltic states" as the title, does not know proper English. In standard English a proper name should have both initial letters capitalized. Baltic States is correct. Slaja (talk) 03:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Except it isn't a proper name of anything; it's just a label. - BilCat (talk) 04:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Right you are, BilCat! We may also browse through this book, "The Baltic states: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania": I would not argue that David Jones Smith "does not know proper English" :))). Cherurbino (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Iceland?[edit]

Goodness me! The article seems to list Iceland as a Baltic state. No, not even in the broadest sense it is! Have I misread it somehow? - SirteP (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with the above comment, the last time I sailed past Iceland it was in the middle of the North Atlantic! More over it forms part of the GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-UK) Gap. Would somebody, preferably whoever added Iceland to the list, please explain their reasoning? Robodick (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC) Robodick

Limitrophe states[edit]

The term limitrophe states does not deserve a mention in the intro section, if anywhere at all. In reference to the three Baltic countries it has only been used used in some obscure French sources but is otherwise not widely known. In fact, the combination of "Baltic states/countries" and "limitrophe" yields only about 700 hits on Google, many of them leading to Wikipedia and its derivatives. --Vihelik (talk) 00:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


The term "state" is misleading and no longer used[edit]

The three Baltic countries used to be called "Baltic states" since they were states of the Soviet Union, today the proper term is Baltic Countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onyxstarr (talkcontribs) 13:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

In this context "state" means Sovereign state, and in any case these countries are widely referred to in reliable sources as the "Baltic states". --Nug (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
They were colloquially (including Finland) known as the Baltic states after independence, during occupation (USSR, Germany, USSR), and after regaining independence. There was no such thing as a Soviet "state" except for "the" Soviet state. Common English usage/scholarly terminology prevails.PЄTЄRS J V TALK 21:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Maps of 1920[edit]

Territory was clearly defined in 1918 close to Lithuania proper. Either do not put maps from 1920 that were changing during 1919-1920 Lithuanian-Polish war or explain what does it represent correctly. The map represents nonsense which can be easily seen in Soviet-Lithuanian Treaty of 1920. Maps from 1919 should be explained as they represent still ongoing Lithuanian Wars of Independence. EMPerror (talk) 11:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If you're talking about this then yes, that's not particularly useful. Worse, the old caption was very clearly and deliberately misleading - does anyone really think that a Polish "propaganda map" would show Vilnius not in Poland?VolunteerMarek 12:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, map used for early propaganda when Suvalkai were occupied. Later maps extended claims to add newly occupied Vilnius and reduces claims in failed complete occupation of Suvalkija. It is map used for propaganda and should not be here, or should be explained as such.EMPerror (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

This map represents modified map of Imperial Russia before 1914 with Kaunas and Vilnius governorates assigned to Lithuania and Suvalkai governorate to Poland for propaganda purposes. It should not be here including dispute dating back to Polish-Lithuanian war. Authentic maps can be used for verification.EMPerror (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

We probably need a better map clearly showing the Brest-Litovsk dividing line, occupation zone as of the signing of the agreement, and superimposing the eventual Baltic states and Poland. I'm not clear, however, who are you saying is the purveyor of propaganda here and to what purpose? VєсrumЬа TALK 20:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Königsberg/Kaliningrad[edit]

What about Königsberg/Kaliningrad? --84.61.149.75 (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Upon gaining freedom from the Russian empire, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, the provinces on the Baltic, became known as the Baltic states, that nomenclature eventually dropping Finland, leaving just other three. Königsberg now Kaliningrad has a different history and is not a "Baltic state" in the geopolitical meaning of that term. VєсrumЬа TALK 19:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
One might wonder how a fact, previously included in the article, has ended up not in it. You know white washing works better when you insert the fact and then explain why this is "wrong", not when you ought right try to deny it even being possible :D ~~Xil (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Economics[edit]

There is obviously an Estonian bias in Economics section. I think we should update this section with more objective information including all three of the Baltic Countries, because the Wikipedia is not a business or investment attraction platform where you can exclude parts of information just to make your country to look good. EqualizeWorld (talk) 19:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

What, specifically, needs to be fixed. I don't see any obvious adverts for foreign investment. VєсrumЬа TALK 20:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Etymology and meaning of term[edit]

I'm somewhat confused as to why "Baltic states" means what it does. Logic would suggest it meant either all the states surrounding the Baltic (analagous to "Mediterranean countries", or the states inhabited by the Baltic peoples (i.e. just Latvia and Lithuania, but not Estonia). Of course, language rarely follows logic, but the article needs to better explain how the current usage came about (including why Finland ceased to be considered a Baltic state). The Etymology and toponymic history section is rather confusing and doesn't really help answer this question - it contains too much general history (which should be transplanted into the Histories section) and not enough about the origin and useage of the term "Baltic states" Iapetus (talk) 11:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I think I did a pretty good job :D – Baltic_states#Features_shared_by_the_Baltic_states This is something I've wanted to do for quite a while, the term indeed is contrived/convoluted. Someone will probably accuse that section of synthesis but most of the stuff mentioned is "common knowledge" discussed with references in the specific articles I linked to in there.
Also agree about the "toponymic history" section, a lot of corollary information but the question what is Baltic states? doesn't really get addressed (I wouldn't have it in me to really remove anything from there though.) Neitrāls vārds (talk) 13:11, 18 December 2013 (UTC)