Talk:Baptism

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Thoughts on Baptism without immersion[edit]

A couple of anecdotes. I once worked for a company where everyone used a time clock to punch in and out. People were office workers and annoyed at this. Finally someone thought to interrogate the NLRB. "Do we have to use time clocks? A: Yes, if you've got them. Q:"What if we don't have them?" A: "Well, then, you can't very well use them, can you?" The company went back home and tore out its' time clocks! Everyone recorded their time manually from then on and were delighted to do so!

2. After Vatican II, it had been mentioned that women might be allowed to participate more. But not in the sanctuary. Hypothetical Q:"What if we don't have a railing denoting a sanctuary?" hypothetical answer: "Well, then, you don't really have a sanctuary, do you?" The American bishops went home and tore out their railings! Girls became acolytes, women became lectors and cantors.

What if? What if the original requirement was for complete immersion. What if the question was "What if we don't have sufficient body of water for immersion?" Hypothetical answer: Well, then, you'll have to use pouring of water. Pouring suddenly became very popular in the northern states of Europe and eventually everyplace. Student7 (talk) 21:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Other initiation ceremonies[edit]

I wonder what the place of this section is. The article is clearly about Baptism in Christianity (and perhaps should be renamed) - so why do we have little bits from other religions? I can understand the "Baptism of objects" and "Debaptism" subsections, but the other ones don't seem to belong here. StAnselm (talk) 20:17, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

It's good to discuss it. IMO they seem to fit here. Mithraic seems to have been omitted. Could you pick the worst one and critique it? Maybe that would help.
I suppose if we need to limit it, we could fork Baptism in Christianity. Seems a bit early for that, but that is worth discussing as well. Student7 (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
OK - "Mandaeans revere John the Baptist and practice frequent baptism as a ritual of purification, not of initiation." Firstly, it's unreferenced. Secondly, it's in the section on "initiation ceremonies", when it isn't. Thirdly, it is not Christian baptism, and I don't suppose anyone would say that it is. StAnselm (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Good start. I tried to cite it. Moved it to "Other", though it unnerved me a little. The remainder of Christianity does not consider LDS Christian either, but they are in the same subsection. So I tried to answer the three points.
Having said that, I do not agree that non-Christian baptism cannot be mentioned here (LDS being a case in point). Student7 (talk) 01:04, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Chart[edit]

I think the chart in section "Comparative summary" takes up a lot of room unnecessarily. The "beliefs about baptism" column doesn't belong in such a chart in my opinion. If the information in that column were moved to the "Specific Christian groups practicing baptism" section, the chart would be a useful reference quickly showing differences on the points in the other columns. --JFH (talk) 20:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

re: textual "proof" against baptein as immerse[edit]

The Luke 11:38 passage does not necessarily indicate that baptizein had the merely the meaning of "wash" rather than "wash by immersion". To say that a modern Westerner couldn't see how a person might be required to wash by immersion when eating with a Pharisee merely shows ignorance of 1st Century Palistinian Judaism. See mikva

American Heritage Dictionary has in the appendix for Gwēbh- "To dip, sink. Suffixed zero-grade form *gwɘbh-yo- in Greek baptein, to dip. (c) 1969, 1970 American Heritage Publishing Co., Inc.

--67.1.179.58 (talk) 06:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Pagurus0

For Wikipedia, you'd need a reliable source that in relation to Luke 11:38 says a Pharisee's guest would be expected to immerse himself fully before eating with him (in spite of Luke 7:44, which says a Pharisee who invited Jesus to a meal provided no water even for him just to wash his feet). If Gwēbh- means "dip, sink" and baptein means "dip", does that mean "baptizein" (a different word) can only mean "dip"? Esoglou (talk) 10:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
The site I provided states that one would only have to perform tevilah (ritual immersion) if the meal of which they were about to partake was considered sacred. Your point is well taken (with regards to Lk. 7:44- unless it was used specifically to show the Pharisee's inhospitality and his disdain for Jesus); if the word in Luke 11:38 means simply "to wash" -as in, one's hands- it can not mean that the hands were immersed as Jewish custom requires the water to be poured over the hands and then run off the elbows to ensure impurities did not remain. After reading though some sites, particularly one from Reformed Theological Seminary showing the diversity of meaning in the word baptein and one explaining baptism for the dead in its Jewish context -which showed βαπτιζειν being interchangeable with λουω, which I had always though meant just "washed", I think I shall have to do more careful research.--67.1.179.58 (talk) 18:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Pagurus0

---The Church of Christ section is written from an omniscient point of view, hardly NPOV. When I added "they believe" to the sentence about baptism in the NT being only immersion, it was reverted. Evidently someone can't let the public read their source and make up their own minds.Markewilliams (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I apologize that the explanation in my edit comment wasn't clearer. The problematic part of your edit had to do with the changes to the text on how the Churches of Christ reacted to the position of the International Churches of Christ. You added "and producing fruit" to the parenthetical description of the ICoC position, which simply isn't what the entry from the Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement cited there is getting at. I've gone back to the Encyclopedia entry and pulled a direct quote so the reader can see exactly how that source characterized the ICoC's baptismal practices (i.e., that they "saw themselves as the only true Christians and insisted on reimmersing all who come into their fellowship, even those previously immersed 'for remission of sins' in a Church of Christ"). My concern had nothing to do with not letting "the public read their source and make up their own minds"; the goal was to make sure that our text accurately followed the source. EastTN (talk) 17:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Unbaptism[edit]

Recently I learned that the catholic church has a process to have your baptism officially annotated to essentially revoke baptismal privileges and Catholicism generally.

This seems like an extremely important and highly relevant fact to be including in the Baptism page under the Roman Catholic Church.

The process is cited with an online reference (via Gawker media) however it also made it into an Australian newspaper (The Echo).

Proposed Edit : In 2014, an Australian man sought excommunication and/or nullification of his baptism from the Catholic Church. In lieu of an offence worthy of excommunication, his baptism records were instead officially annotated to record the fact that he was no longer a Catholic. [1]

Any suggestions for revision of how this is worded or why something like this should not be included?

Erfmufn (talk) 10:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The answer is at Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church. Esoglou (talk) 12:09, 22 March 2014 (UTC)