Talk:Barbary lion

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Extinct or not?[edit]

The texts says: "It is extinct in the wild and was believed to be extinct in captivity until stray individuals were located in circus populations within the last three decades." But as far as I know there are no proven (genetically) pure Barbary lions in captivity. Many zoos and private institutions claim to have a Barbary Lion, due to their appearance. This is not evidence of the existence of this subspecies. The large mane, etc. is also caused by life in captivity. There is however a possibility, but most likely they are only descendents and cross-bred hybrids. If someone can present evidence of its pure existence in captivity, I would be very happy. Until now I haven't seen any! Pmaas 09:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

This is what I write on my website [1]: "Several people and institutions claim to have Barbary lions, and this lion subspecies is often seen as 'extinct in the wild'. There is much confusion between Barbary Lions and other long-maned captive lions. Lions in captivity today have been bred and cross-bred from lions captured in Africa long ago - with examples from all of these 'subspecies'. Mixed together, hybridised, most of today's captive lions have a 'soup' of genes from many different lions. Compound that with the many other variables that decide the extent of a lion's mane and you begin to see just how inappropriate the following statement is: "This lion has a long mane and so must be a Barbary". Until the DNA fingerprinting is produced, there is no definitive way to identify a lion as Barbary. The Extinction Website does not recognize the existence of a living specimen of the Barbary, and acknowledges that the subspecies is extinct." Pmaas 09:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Longleat Safari Park in England also claims to have a Barbary Lion -- I was just watching it on TV. The Wikipedia article on Longleat Safari Park also lists it. I just thought I'd mention it as you don't mention Longleat on your website. -- Peter Harriman

Thanks. Peter Maas 17:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Some people here keep changing "extinct" into "extinct in the wild"! Why? Please give a good reason. There is evidence that there is a Barbary lion in captivity. It can now be tested if lions are genetically barbary from the maternal (female) line! Until now only five specimens from the famous "Barbary" collection of the Moroccan King have been tested: result NOT maternally Barbary! Therefor it seem very dubious to keep on calling this subspecies "extinct in the wild", because there is no evidence it survives in captivity, until now. Please comment here if you disagree! Peter Maas 15:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, it's not me! Peter Harriman 19:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I know who it is, but he or she does not respond/answers in the talk pages, sadly enough.Peter Maas 15:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to inform you all: I've recieved an email from Dr Nobuyuki Yamaguchi (Wildlife Conservation Research Unit Oxford University, Department of Zoology). He does a lot of research to the Barbary lion (he is the (co-)author of the most recent scientific articles on this subject). This is what he says: "Based on the best knowledge available at the moment, I would say they have become extinct at least in the wild. If one would carry out a worldwide survey on the genetic characteristics of captive lions, the answer may be changed. Also, the concept of conservation of lion genetic diversity may also change the concept of extinction in the future." Do you have a problem with changing it into: "The Barbary Lion, Atlas lion or Nubian lion Panthera leo leo is a subspecies of lion that has become extinct at least in the wild." Please respond this time on the talk pages. Peter Maas 15:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
all existing "Barbary Lions" are hybrids, so the pure Barbary Lion is indeed extinct. --Melly42 11:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
That is not shure. There are captive lions, which could be pure barbary lions.--Altaileopard 15:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone find a photo of the "alleged" Barbary Lions in captivity--Francisco Valverde 13:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I've seen several, all with large manes. But that does not say anything. A few are descendents from the Moroccan royal lions. They might indeed by pure (although that would be very unlikely in my opinion as most zoo-lions are not pure subspecies) or hybrids. The ones tested were not barbary (from the female line). But not all are tested. Here an image of one [2]. Zoos and animal parks that claim to have Barbary lions or descendents (only the ones I know): Temara Zoo (Rabat, Morocco); Port Lympne Wild Animal Park (Kent, England); Longleat Safari Park (Wiltshire, England); Zoo de Madrid (Madrid, Spain); Big Cat Rescue (Tampa, Florida, U.S.A.); Parc de la tête d'Or ( Lyon, France); Zoo Neuwied (Neuwied, Germany), Zion Wildlife Gardens (Kamo, New Zealand). Peter Maas\talk 18:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Here an interesting pdf (Urgent call for further breeding of the relic zoo population of the critically endangered Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo Linnaeus 1758)) on the Barbary lions of Neuwied Zoo. Peter Maas\talk 19:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
That article uses a lion from Neuwied Zoo. The position of the specimen from the Neuwied Zoo in the cladogram (Fig. 1) is a proof that its mitochondrial lineage is not of sub-Saharan origin and, thus, very likely a descendant of a Barbary lion. It does not say if it is pure or not. Peter Maas\talk 20:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Belfast Zoo in Northern Ireland not only claim to have Barbary Lions but have so far sucessfully bred three cubs. Lily was born in 2007 and rejected by her mother forcing her to be hand reared by her keeper who used an Akita dog to simulate proper cub behaviours so that Lily could be reintegrated successfully into the pack. In January 2008 two male cubs were born and are doing well. I'm told this is the most successful breeding programme in Europe but I wasn't aware that there was debate over their purty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainbeecher (talkcontribs) 09:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The current article is very problematical, on one hand all genetic tests conducted on alleged living specimens have showed they weren't Barbary lions, yet the article still contains claims like "cubs were recently born in Morocco Zoo" and so on. FunkMonk (talk) 09:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Size[edit]

There has been evidence that the Barbary was any bigger than a African Lion, yet it has a Barbary was approximitly the same size of a Bengal Tiger..... This Lion vs Tiger thing is going to far. The purpose of this site is to educate people on the choosen topic not to play child hood fantacy games. If yall are going to make such claims I think there should be a source at least.

I Can't Find Some Information


I'm having quite a bit of trouble. Do you know, or know where I could find out, the name for a barbary lion that rules the pride?

I think you've organized the page very well. It is also very interesting that we don't know if they're extinct or not (I hope they aren't).

P.S. I'm new to Wikipedia, as in, less than a month here. --African Pygmy Hedgehog 00:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I have 5 Barbary Lions in my reproduction center in Mexico City and if someone wants more information and photos please contact me at carlosperalta@iusa.com.mx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.79.160.168 (talk) 03:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

WildLink International[edit]

"WildLink International can not be reached anymore and their website is nowadays offline. Everyone is in the dark as to what happened to WildLink International."

I think this should be removed, or at least revised as it seems to contradict other parts of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.213.150.112 (talk) 17:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

New genetic test available[edit]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080404-tower-lions.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.9.93 (talk) 12:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

different how?[edit]

how is the Barbary lion genetically different from the regular lion is it the mane? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.28.14 (talk) 02:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

A genetic difference is du to differences in the DNA-Sequence, but that does not mean that there has to be a difference in the phentotype. A genetic difference is noetheless important, as you can see how strong two forms are related. --Altaileopard (talk) 16:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Barbary Lion or Barbary lion[edit]

Surely the latter is correct? Mooretwin (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)