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- 1 Etimology
- 2 RickK
- 3 Sale corsairs
- 4 Barbary Pirates in the North Atlantic
- 5 Which Tripoli?
- 6 Historiographical Lexicon
- 7 Spanish Expedition on Algiers in 1775
- 8 After 1815
- 9 raids on North America?
- 10 A silly question...
- 11 Jefferson report to Sec. State John Jay and Continental Congress
- 12 Beginning of Barbary corsairs?
- 13 Conditions in the Bagnios compared to conditions in America
- 14 Adrian Tinniswood, Pirates of Barbary
- 15 What about the sexual aspect
- 16 India?
- 17 Pirates
- 18 Looking Better
- 19 Merger proposal
- 20 =Impact on the development of the USA
- The name apparently derives from Barbarossa, which means red beard
The article states that the "pirates" are better described as "privateer". Under what nation or state were they commissioned?
All those states were totally or partially connected to the Ottoman Empire during the era. Most of the pirates (privateers) were serving as the navy man of the empire. That is why they are know as the "Turks". barfly 23:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The word "Barbary" Corsair, sounds strange especially the term "Barbary" is dehumanizing, exaggerated, absolutely weird. I strongly believe the term *Corsair* should be used, because after all they were highly innovative Sailors who influenced the development of sailing. They built ships such as the Xebec, Polocca, Felucca, Dhows and previously galleys, in fact they influenced the Design of the modern day Yacht...so lets think again they should be called: Corsairs from here on forth —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sindbad mughal (talk • contribs) 22:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Good luck with that. The article specifically denotes them as "Muslim pirates" again and again. The designation is weird. It has the typical tone of an article written by white Christian supremacist neck beards. 220.127.116.11 14:08, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Please tell me what your problem is with my comment, rather than just deleting everything I write. You are Stupid!!!
- I can't speak for Rick, but I removed it because it's an irrelevant political remark. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject of the article. Rhobite 06:45, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I think it is very noteworthy. It proves that the Barbary pirates were seen as so much of a threat, that the USA established a fleet in a sea where they had no territories, as opposed to the Atlantic or Pacific where they did, and were able to convince the government of their country to fork out for it. - ~~R Bell
- That's how you see it, but not how I see it. If I put it in as such, I would have phrased it differently, probably referring to expansionism etc. Can you explain how it was an inaccurate statement?
- - Raymond Bell
This article is pure PC nonsense. These pirates enslaved christians and justified it by reference to the koran and the crusades. Indeed, Jefferson when he attempted to negotiate with representatives of the barbary states employed the argument that (a)the US was in no-sense a "christian nation" and (b) that the United States did not nor could it have participated in the crusades. These are pertinent facts for anyone who wants to understand this entry.
The article does not mention the term "Sale corsairs" which seems to be commonly applied to these pirates. Back in England in those days the town was often spelled "Sally".
Barbary Pirates in the North Atlantic
I added what I know of the subject from my time in School.
Here are the links with the information that can be confirmed: (Some sites in Danish.)
Note about Mogens Heinesøn: He is well-described in Faroese literature, and by a couple of Danish and Norweigan authors, but there is little information to be found about him on the net. Swedish author Frans Bengtson may have borrowed a story of Mogens Heinesøn as a galley slave in his book "The Long Ships". Anonymous.
- Edited for clarification. There were other pirates in the North Atlantic besides the Barbary pirates. Magnus Heinesøn is also spelled different in Faroese, Danish, and Norweigan, which explains some of the difficulties in Googling for references.
- Different spelling include: Mogens/Magnus; Heinesøn/Heinesen/Heineson/Heinasen/Heinason.
- More sources: (Sites in Danish and Norweigan.)
What is the basis for this?: "and members of certain families still have a distinct Middle Eastern appearance." Anyone in the Faroe Islands who do not have blue eyes and blond hair are claimed to look "Middle Eastern", there's no logical or genetic basis for this. - Habib--18.104.22.168 13:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC) ---
- According to local history, Iceland was at one time nearly depopulated by the depredations of the Barbary Pirates.The last incursion is said to have taken place during the Napoleonic wars.
Basic knowledge of Icelandic history is enough to recognize this as nonsense. Rewrote the paragraph completely, hope it turns out useful. - Oskar Gudlaugsson (*April 15)
- Very nice - thanks! - DavidWBrooks 16:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
--- Much of the article seems to have been written from a American perspective. Is a rewrite without the anti-european, pro 'war on terror' perspective possible ? A view of the barbary pirates from a native of North Africa would also be interesting. - 22.214.171.124, 11 June 2006
- Feel free to add useful content. Me, I think the date of first tribute in 1784 is a little early; if it's correct, it would have had to have been the Continental Congress, as the U.S. Constitution that created today's Congress didn't take place until 1787. In any case, there should be more background information about the system of tribute and ransom employed by the Barbary pirates. Wesley 16:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I find it highly unsettling that people are apparantly ready to delete information that that they find inconvenient at the drop of a hat. The Barbary Pirate raid on Iceland is indisputable historical fact, and I have reinstated the information with multiple online sources. I would ask people to please *try* to maintain a NPOV before going bananas with the edit function again. Misereor 23:00, 5 August 2006 (GMT)
I believe the Tripoli which was a port for the Barbary pirates was Tripoli, Lebanon, not Tripoli, Libya. The link at the beginning of this article points to Tripoli, Libya. I will attempt to research this before changing it.
L. Greg 04:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- I believe you are incorrect; the Encyclopedia Britannica is very clear that they operated out of North Africa, based in what is now Libya and Algeria. After all, "Barbary" comes from Barbary states, which extended west (not east) from Egypt, thus ruling out Lebanon. Interesting thought, though: I didn't even know there was a Tripoli, Lebanon! - DavidWBrooks 11:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time to go into detail on this right now because I'm studying for my University Final on the subject but a couple of erratum have come to my attention.
Firstly, the Barbary "Pirates" are more correctly called Corsairs. In addition to it being the traditional name I've always heard them called, it more aptly describes their political situation. For clarification on what I'm talking about:
Pirate: Someone who robs or plunders for personal gain
Corsair: A pirate with a letter of Marque or other form of permission or patronage from a Government Body or Monarch
Privateer: A war-time Corsair
The Barbary Corsairs were not private individuals but more like guerrilla seamen for their nations. Additionally the Barbary states had at most times official support and patronage from the Ottoman Empire, reinforcing the corsair-nature of their activities.
My second big point is that The Ottoman Empire is referred to in this article as Turkey and the Ottomans as Turks. This is not correct. Yes the Ottoman empire began in turkey and the Original Sultans were turkish, but they have been more properly referred to as Ottomans since Osman in the middle ages. Besides this, by the period this article is concerned with, the Ottomans had incorporated so many nations and come to comprise such a vast Diaspora, including Sultans of numerous ethnicities, that you cannot properly refer to any aspect outside of turkey as Turkish.
I encourage anyone to consult modern historiographical practices on this subject and update the article accordingly, or as I said, I'll return when I have time to do it myself
Charon96 14:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with charon96 and have swapped the entries so that they reflect this. This isssue is a reflection of the colonial discourse that still surrounds former colonies, particularly African ones. This article really needs a thorough going through and its problems have most likely arisen because the article is based on an old Britannica article, written when very few people would have questioned the justification and motivation of taking over these countries or look at it from their point of view. My Honours Thesis was on the Barbary Corsairs, so I do know what I am talking about(Jimjams101).
Spanish Expedition on Algiers in 1775
In 1775 the Spanish under Charles III sent his navy and 22,000 men to Algiers to end the razzias on the Spanish coast, well before the 1781 US expedition.
--126.96.36.199 18:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I tagged this section as having a POV problem. It reads overwhelmingly like an account copied from a 19th century text, with all the biases and assumptions inherent in that. The fact that, unlike the rest of the article, the text is whole, without any citations (and hardly any wiki links) makes me wonder if this isn't the case after all. Ford MF (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think that the only change needed is to replace "universally" with "by the Christian powers". I will make that change and remove the tag. If I may say so, I see a lot more bias inherent in your comments (that if Whites were mistreated by non-Whites, they probably deserved it, the wicked racist imperialists) than in the text you are complaining about. Luwilt (talk) 15:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
raids on North America?
The current revision claims that they raided North America. Which part, precisely? Florida? Newfoundland? New England? Or did they attack ships sailing from North America, but not the continent itself? 188.8.131.52 (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
A silly question...
The article talks about Barbary corsairs "preying on Christian and other non-Islamic shipping" in the Western Mediterranean. What other religions are we talking about here - buddhism ?Boulet rouge (talk) 21:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- That`s a good point. Afaik: Islamic pirates also where a danger to "pagan" Africans, and also in the Read Sea to the nonwestern christians of Ethiopia.
- Which brings us to another aspect, There is written in the head of the article that the piracy started during the crusades, when in fact these kind of piracy was part of the expansion of Islam from the beginning. I mean that`s how they get fe to Spain in the first place, it started with short raides - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazw. 184.108.40.206 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 16:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Jefferson report to Sec. State John Jay and Continental Congress
Unfortunately, the citation of the previously posted quote, like that of Michael Oren's comments (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/05/11/michaelOren.html) and more modern usages of the quote, contain no sources/footnotes to the original report from Jefferson.
In searching Jefferson's letters (at least those online), the only letter in 1786 regarding the Barbary Pirates is to John Adams, and is contained at the following two links: 1. http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=46&division=div1; 2. http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl46.htm
I have found another "second hand" citing of the Ambassador's response to Jefferson, but in a much earlier text; The Atlantic Monthly from October 1872 (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?ammem/coll=moa&root=/moa/atla/atla0030/&tif=00419.TIF&view=50&frames=1).
Although I have updated the quote in the article to reflect the earliest source, I am still looking for the original document from Jefferson to Sec. State Jay. Studentofthe193 (talk) 22:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Beginning of Barbary corsairs?
The article lead has the Barbary corsairs beginning their activities in the11th century; later on down it suggests them starting even as early as the 9th century, citing the attacks on Sicily, Italy, etc. Should these really be classed as corsair attacks, as opposed to ordinary warfare?
The line between piracy, privateering, and warfare isn't easy to draw, but what I think distinguishes the Barbary corsairs is that they were essentially private individuals operating with the consent of government authorities, but without being either paid or directed by those authorities. They struck where they wanted, lived off the sale of stolen wealth and people, and owed the government only a percentage of the take. Is that really what was going on in Italy and Sicily during the 9th through 11th centuries? Pirate Dan (talk) 16:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Conditions in the Bagnios compared to conditions in America
The current entry doesn't make much sense, but I don't know how to correct it. It says that by the 18th century the slaves were running their own shops and bars in the bagnios, but that such amenities were as common to those slaves as to their American counterparts.
I don't know much about the conditions in the slave bagnios of North Africa, but I do know enough about American slavery to know that American slaves weren't allowed to own real estate, and so couldn't run their own bars and shops. So either the statement that Barbary states' slaves ran their bars and shops has to be wrong, or the statement that these amenities were equally common to American slaves has to be wrong. Can someone clarify? Pirate Dan (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with you, mate. The entry about bagnios being similar to the conditions of American slaves is highly tenuous and unreferenced at that. It appears to be an effort to relate the entry to America or to make some point about moral relativism. Neither is appropriate here, so I'm getting rid of that sentence. The Cap'n (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Adrian Tinniswood, Pirates of Barbary
I've edited and added some info from the recent NY Times review of this book  and added it as Further reading. What was new to me was that (per the review) "the most notorious corsairs were European renegades who had learned the trade on privateers", and in peacetime, some "brought previously unknown seafaring expertise to the business of Barbary piracy." Ian W. Toll, the Times reviewer, notes that, rather than a "clash of civilizations" between Christianity & Islam, "Barbary piracy was a commercial enterprise, offering a handsome livelihood" to the pirates.
What about the sexual aspect
Did I not read somewhere that they wanted young Christian boys to sodimise ? That sounds more plausible than some revenge for crusades tosh especially given that Turkey had once been the seat of the Christian Roman empire, the Hagia Sophia started out as a church etc etc 220.127.116.11 (talk) 16:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- With all due respect, having read something "somewhere" doesn't warrant it being entered as fact. Making the extraordinary claim that an entire civilization engaged in mulitple wars in order to satisfy their rampant pedophilia requires some extraordinary evidence. On the flip side, there's massive amounts of evidence supporting lingering cultural animosity due to the Crusades.
- Also, I'm unclear on your point about the Hagia Sophia, et al. 1) What does turning a church into a mosque have to do with anally raping children? and 2) Doesn't that further support the position that the Turks were motivated by territorial and monetary gains, not perversion? The Cap'n (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC).
- There is a reference in David Hebb's Piracy and the English Government to the corsairs having raped the male sailors of one of their captive ships, although I've given the book back to the library and don't have a page number or details to hand.
- However, I've seen no evidence that sex was anything like the major reason for the corsairs' raids. The Turks, like anybody else, were well over 90% heterosexual, and if they wanted sex slaves they bought female slaves from the Circassians, just as the Europeans did. Geoffrey Parker, The World: An Illustrated History, p. 176. The Barbary states took slaves mainly for domestic service, to man their galleys, and extort a huge profit in ransoms; economic motives covered by religious excuses, as we see in many other cases in world history. The corsairs might rape from time to time when they felt like it, but that wasn't the main idea. Pirate Dan (talk) 19:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
These raids were often in retaliation against the killing and forced conversions that Muslims living in Spain were facing, also in retaliation against raids carried out by the Portuguese on Muslim ruled India, where many were killed or taken as slaves.
I find the connection to India a little far-fetched. Fair enough about the Moriscos, as Salé was essentially founded by refugees from Spain, but India is a little too far and this is not the modern world, etc --Phagopsych (talk) 19:29, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- And the retaliation issue's not touched on by the single link that works; that's the first in the series of three. The second's defunct. The third (neither linked nor a full citation, so I'm only guessing here) might refer to the 16th century Tuhfat Al Mujahidin, which deals with Muslim resistance to the Portuguese takeover at Malabar, amongst other things; the author (a Malabar Muslim) might well have interpreted or justified the Barbary corsair raids as retaliation or jihad - if this review is anything to go by. But I'm just guessing wildly here, and besides, one author does not a general viewpoint make. Haploidavey (talk) 20:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've removed the last two cites, as per comments above. The first was defunct, and could not be linked despite a search. I presume the other was offered to support the raids as "often retaliatory". I'm sure they might well have been justified as that by some contemporaries (see Tuhfat Al Mujahidin above) but we need a proper source, and I've tagged accordingly. Haploidavey (talk) 20:51, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Retaliation for the mistreatment of the Moriscos and Marranos might have motivated some of the attacks against Spain, and Phagopsych is right about New Sale being founded by exiles, but since the corsairs happily ravaged Italy, France, England, Ireland, and even Iceland, their depredations as a whole cannot be explained away as mere retaliation against their former oppressors. Pirate Dan (talk) 22:54, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I've been reading The Pirate Wars by Peter Earle, and had a look at this article. As far as I've understood from Earle, the Barbary corsairs always sailed with some type of permission from the rulers of the Barbary States. So that would make them corsairs or privateers, but not pirates. So why are they consistently referred to as pirates in the article?
- David Hebb's [i]Piracy and the English Government[/i] disagrees. It says that Algiers and Tripoli were formally subject to the Sultan of Morocco, who most often did not authorize them to attack Christian shipping, but they did it illegally anyway. TO be sure, there were many occasions also when the Sultan of Morocco or the Ottoman Sultan did grant letters of marque, but much like the buccaneers of Jamaica and Tortuga, the Barbary sailors didn't care too much about whether they had legal permission to attack their enemies or about respecting the limits of those permissions.
- I do think the word "corsair" would be better, because (again like "buccaneer") it covers both licensed privateers and illegal pirates. Pirate Dan (talk) 09:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
when I first moved this page from Barbary Pirates to here, the original version of this page was terrible and very dated in its outlook. Now it is looking much better, so congratulations to those that have been working through it. It has certainly had much of the colonial rhetoric removed and is much less biased than what it was. Although there is still work to be done. Jimjams101 (talk) 12:09, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sure if a simple merger is preferable. There are many articles addressing various aspects of these event. What is needed is a structure; possibly an umbrella article (your 'merged' article) with more detail in lower-level articles; along with some boundaries on such articles. - Lugnad (talk) 11:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I completed the merger today by ensuring the few references were distributed to this article or the sub articles the Barbary Wars article was referencing. Where content did not seem to overlap I roughed it into this article. Hopefully having it all in one place will make it easier for us to consolidate the content and branch it appropriately as need arises. I think the next steps are to improve the content in this article and review the slicing of the article at a later date. Alan.ca (talk) 21:47, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
=Impact on the development of the USA
I am merging in the content from the Barbary Wars article and I have found an interesting paragraph that does not have any references, but I find the content familiar with my readings on the subject. I want to document it here on the talk page instead of losing it in the merger versus integrating the content that has not direct sources. I am looking for community feedback on its integration:
When the United States military efforts of the early 19th century were successful against the pirates, partisans of the Democratic-Republicans contrasted their presidents' refusals to buy off the pirates by paying tribute with the failure of the preceding Federalist administration to suppress the piracy. The Federalist Party had adopted the slogan, "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute," but had failed to end the attacks on merchant ships. The phrase was attributed to Charles C. Pinckney in the course of the XYZ Affair; however, historians have determined that the sentence originated with Sen. Robert Goodloe Harper.
Requested move 1
Requested move 2
Change it back to Barbary Corsairs - Barbary Pirates is not the correct term!
This page should not have reverted to Barbary Pirates; it is simply the incorrect term, both currently and historically and I will lobby for it to be corrected. It is similar to tsunami. for a long time everyone called them tidal waves, but it was incorrect and it has take a concerted effort and some terrible examples for that to change. As a senior High school teacher, I know how many students see Wikipedia as the go to source for information and it should be using the correct term. I wrote my honours thesis on this topic and used over 70 primary and secondary sources in its construction; I can with reasonable justification call myself an expert on the Barbary corsairs and feel that this is a complete travesty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimjams101 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
"Piratical activity by Muslim populations had been known in Mediterranean since at least the 9th century and the short-lived Emirate of Crete. Despite the animosity generated by the Crusades, the level of Muslim pirate activity was relatively low. In the 13th and 14th century it was rather Christian pirates, particularly out of Catalonia, that had been the constant threat to merchants."
There is so much innate bias in these three sentences it is hard to know where to begin. This is another reason I forbid my children from even thinking about using Wikipedia as a reliable, honest scholastic resource.
The Christian "crusades," as any high-schooler knows, was in response to the violent conquests of Islam at the tip of a sword. These conquests began almost before Muhammad's body was even cold, c. 629 AD. See subsequent conquests of Egypt, Syria, Jerusalem, the Levant, Byzantium, etc. etc. all the way to the gates of Vienna in 1529...900 years of almost-constant, violent expansion.
The Christian "crusades" were in response to these attacks on the Holy Lands and in response to attacks on "kuffir" -- infidels, i.e. Christian pilgrims from Europe on the road to Jerusalem.
"Despite the animosity generated by the Crusades..." Indeed.
It is astonishing that such propaganda can still be perpetuated so brazenly. Propaganda perpetuated is ignorance perpetuated. It is dangerous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- How exactly is what was stated biased? Would you have the article spell out the entire history of Christian-Muslim conflict? That simply can't be done here.
- I'm also bothered by the disturbing logic that one violent war justifies another? Wrad (talk) 06:02, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- Piracy is piracy whether committed by "Christians" in the Caribbean Sea or "Muslims" in the Med or around the coasts of western Europe. Wikipedia reports what reliable sources say without passing judgement or censoring the data to suit anyone's sensibilities.--Charles (talk) 10:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
The sentence "The sacking of Palma on the island of Sardinia by a Tunisian squadron, which carried off 158 inhabitants, roused widespread indignation" is from the Encyclopedia Britannica (11th edition, out of copyright)", and is problematical because, as far as I can tell, there is no such town in Sardinia - see, for example, Palma (a disambiguation page), and List of cities in Sardinia. I also used Google Maps, without success. Some (minimal, admittedly) searching in Google Scholar didn't turn up anything for a pirate sacking [of 1815, apparently] in Palma or elsewhere.
(In the article, "Palma" is a redlink to Palma, Sardinia.)
Perhaps the town has been renamed, or was merged into another municipality? Or this "fact", in EB (widely cited elsewhere, of course) is incorrect - perhaps the town/city that was sacked was not on Sardinia? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 17:45, 22 September 2014 (UTC)