Talk:Baron Münchhausen

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Untitled[edit]

Mit Umlaut oder ohne Umlaut? --MacRusgail 19:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Mit Umlaut: ü !

Move?[edit]

Mit umlaut indeed! Should this page not be moved to Baron Münchhausen? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ampersand777 (talkcontribs).

Nobody has commented on this for a week and a half; I'm gonna move itAmp 19:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Spelling Consistency[edit]

It appears that all three accepted (?) spellings are in use throughout this article: Münchhausen, Munchhausen, Munchausen. Where titles of literary works etc. are being referenced, the spelling appropriate to the work in question should of course be used, but the article's narrative itself should choose one spelling and stick to it. Given the umlaut-related discussion above, I would guess that "Münchhausen" should be the spelling of choice. JanRu (talk) 22:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


Münchhausen Trilemma[edit]

It would be nice to have a small summary of this use of Münchhausen's name (under the heading of "Philosophy"), similar to what was done with Münchhausen Syndrome in Psychology. JanRu (talk) 22:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


Robin Williams' Pseudonym[edit]

Does anyone know why Robin Williams is credited as Ray D. Tutto in this film......I notice at IMDB he has used several names in film.... has he used this name in other films? R. Silver 25 July 2007

Question is more relevant to Talk:The Adventures of Baron Munchausen -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced Material[edit]

Sections tagged for no sourcing for nearly a year. Please feel free to reincorporate into article with appropriate sourcing! Doniago (talk) 19:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Leaving the article without a section regarding his life is a pretty strange thing to do. Maybe it is lacking sources, but at least it can be cross-checked easily, for instance in the German wikipedia. Removing would only make sense, if the section is likely to be wrong. I will reinstate it. -- Zz (talk) 09:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I would rather see the material left here until sourcing can be established (and other Wikis are not reliable sources) than reinserted while still lacking sources, especially as the article has been tagged long-term. Per WP:BURDEN, please either source the material or leave it here until there is a consensus as to its ultimate disposition. Thank you. Doniago (talk) 15:59, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I have mentioned a variety of possible sources. You have picked the one you could dismiss, even at the price of a sweeping statement. And I repeat, it is a pretty strange thing to delete an entire section that you could have checked easily. Münchhausen is neither unknown nor undocumented. Yes, there are guidelines on Wikipedia, but there is also Use Common Sense.
You thank me at the end of your prose. I guess it means that Münchhausen being well coumented is all news to you. For that reason and since Münchhausen is well outside your expertise, I ask you to refrain from editing the article. You are welcome. -- Zz (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
But at least you're not being dismissive or sarcastic. When you can cite policy supporting the addition of unsourced material, or other editors come here to form a consensus, I'll accept that re-adding the material without sourcing is appropriate, at least according to those who are concerned with the article. Until then, whether or not the article's content is within my realm of expertise is immaterial. Per WP:BURDEN if you wish to add it, the onus is on you to provide sourcing when re-adding the material, not to simply say it exists. Doniago (talk) 19:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
When material is disputed or controversial, that is... Are you disputing the basic biographical details, and if so, why? -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm disputing them because no credible sources are being provided to back them up, and I removed them because that fact was pointed out months ago and no editors saw fit to do anything to resolve the situation in that time. If my moving the information here inspires editors to find proper sourcing, I'd say it was worth it. Hell, strictly speaking the information could have been removed much sooner, but I believe in giving editors time to provide sourcing in cases like this. Doniago (talk) 03:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your actions with respect to the "Life" section are such that some might see them more as being technicalistic wikilawyering, rather than appropriately and usefully serving the cause of article improvement (i.e. disputing for the sake of disputing, rather than because you have concerns about factual accuracy etc.)... AnonMoos (talk) 13:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
If editors have concerns regarding my motivations for making changes to articles they are welcome to approach me with their concerns (though unfortunately it seems many editors fail to assume good faith when they do so). In any case, I doubt there is any Wikipedia policy supporting the viewpoint that removing unsourced material is disruptive. As noted, policy permits an editor to delete unsourced material immediately if they so choose, but in this case I believe that would be precipitous; hence the waiting until the material remained unsourced for a significant length of time, followed by moving it here for archiving/discussion (and hopefully sourcing and reincorporation). Doniago (talk) 15:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
You may be well-intentioned, but unfortunately others may perceive your actions to be basically holding a section of the article hostage until your sourcing demands are met, rather than either contributing to or legitimately questioning the factual accuracy of the article... AnonMoos (talk) 15:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
That strikes me as kind of silly, since, as I stated earlier, if other editors form a consensus that the information should be reinserted into the article in contravention of policy, I won't be happy about it, but I'm not going to remove it again at least until I can get some support for my viewpoint. Right now, though, there doesn't appear to be a consensus to reinsert the material without sourcing. In any event, I think any material that isn't reliably sourced is always legitimately open to question, and policy supports challenging/removing unsourced material.
I am worried that we're getting rather off-topic here though; to my mind this discussion should be about the merits of the specific material and whether it is appropriate to include it in the article without sourcing, not my motives for removing it...focus on content, not the contributor, as they say.
Actually, ideally editors should source the material and reinsert it, rendering the discussion moot. Doniago (talk) 15:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, ideally editors should Use Common Sense. Since the facts about Münchhausen's life can easily be cross-checked and you are not challenging them in the first place, we can add the part about his life again. Oh, and yes, your template that it is unsourced will remain. -- Zz (talk) 13:33, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense to me. Based on your assertion that the information can be easily cross-checked, why are you unwilling to source said information? How is inserting it with a tag that the information is unsourced preferable to providing sourcing or omitting it until sourcing can be provided, especially if it can be "easily" sourced? Also, "use common sense" is part of an essay and does not trump WP:VERIFY, which is a policy. Doniago (talk) 15:54, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
BTW, if removing unsourced material doesn't constitute a challenge to the reliability of the information, what does? Doniago (talk) 15:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
The part about common sense addresses the point "but it is a policy". And what you do is not just the policy, but your interpretation of it. You have some automatisms in your work on wikipedia, and you do not cross-check, if they are actually reasonable. As far as I see, the opinions here are 2:1 against you. And your attempts at wikilawyering have been called as that. The deletion of the part about life should not have happened in the first place. If nobody speaks out in your favor, I will re-instore the life section with the tag (not the other one, however).
Marking something as unsourced helps others. For instance, they can see that there might be work to do, right? -- Zz (talk) 09:15, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't see that Anonmoos is necessarily opposing the removal of material, and would like clarification from them rather than having us interpret their position on the matter. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from making less-than-good-faith statements as to my motives as well; please discuss the situation, not the editors involved. Doniago (talk) 16:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I have requested additional opinions at the various project pages, and would respectfully request that you refrain from reinserting the unsourced material pending additional feedback. As noted, I do not believe Anonmoos has clearly indicated that they feel the material should be reinserted without sourcing. I also remain curious as to your resistance to providing sourcing given your assertion that the material "can be easily cross-checked". Doniago (talk) 16:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

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From the references section of the article: (German) wikisource:de:ADB:Münchhausen, Hieronymus Freiherr von (Erzähler) – all you ever needed to know about Baron Münchhausen. Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\Work 17:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Despite reading Münchhausen in my early youth, I still have a wonderful illustrated book somewhere of his most famous tales, and his marrying Latvian, I regret to say that I did not have this article on my watchlist and only came to it through the above-mentioned request. There is a small community of interested editors; a better way to handle dormant articles with issues is to revive conversation at one of the Wiki projects pages. Removing content simply because it has remained uncited for a long time is not constructive--energies would, IMHO, be better spent on finding a citation or two rather than demonstrating one's interest in an article by whacking off bits. Maybe it's just me. PЄTЄRS J V TALK 22:30, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Grimm's "The Six who went far"[edit]

(I'm not very familiar with the wiki editing, so I beg you pardon for possible mistakes in the formatting.)

I just want to point out that the little passage about the Grimm's Fairy Tales Adaption of Munchhausen seems to be nonsense, because "the six"-story is - besides being very similar to Munchhausen (and several stories originated elsewhere) - just also an original Grimm's story. So Munchhausen isn't left out for any other reason than the fact that he doesn't appear in the Grimm-version.

you can look it up here in the German Wikipedia:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sechse_kommen_durch_die_ganze_Welt#Herkunft

91.51.203.46 (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

G. Dore's caricature[edit]

This portrait looks very much alike Napoleon III. Sketched in 1866 this was maybe some political irony? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.242.105 (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Article name[edit]

This topic is of considerable literary importance, and is worth a lot of work, but I'm far from certain that "Baron Münchhausen" is an accurate name for it. As far as I can tell from the writeup and related links, we're actually dealing with two people here:

  • Baron von Münchhausen, the real person.
  • Baron Munchausen, the fictional character. The simplified spelling (no umlaut, one H) has been used in almost every English-language version, from Raspe to Gilliam. Other languages have different spelling conventions for the character (French: Baron de Munchhausen; Czech: Baron Prašil; Lithuanian: Baronas Miunchhausenas; etc.), none of which affect the real nobleman's name.

With that spelling issue in mind, the article name "Baron Münchhausen" seems inaccurate, or at least misleading. Thoughts?--Lemuellio (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, yes, there is that. We could always use the full name, Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen (per WP:DE, whereas we show Karl Friedrich Hieronymus, Freiherr von Münchhausen in the article lead). BTW, in Latvian, Hieronīms Kārlis Frīdrihs fon Minhauzens, so I think the word order here in English might need some adjustment as well. Baron M. with/without umlaut should probably direct to a correctly titled article. VєсrumЬа TALK 20:36, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Good catch! I hadn't noticed the problem with the full name. We can therefore sum up by saying:
  • Baron Münchhausen is the German name for the fictional character.
  • Baron Munchausen is, by long tradition, the English equivalent.
  • Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen was the original inspiration.
As for the article title, I'm not sure what to think. "Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen" would certainly apply to the real person, but judging from Special:WhatLinksHere/Baron_Münchhausen, nearly all mentions in the English Wikipedia refer specifically to the fictional version, who's never referred to by that name. The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, and my own paper copy of the Columbia Encyclopedia, both solve the problem by calling their articles "Baron Munchausen" and then giving the Baron's real name later on. I don't know whether this would be suitable for Wikipedia, but it's one way out of the difficulty.--Lemuellio (talk) 16:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Pseudologia fantastica[edit]

Was Münchhausen a case of pseudologia fantastica? Should we mention this in the Münchhausen article? Notice that Münchhausen is mentioned in the pseudologia fantastica article... Kintaro (talk) 17:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that enough is known about the historical Baron to support a psychiatric diagnosis. In any case, we would need reliable sources... AnonMoos (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Making article concise[edit]

There was a box at the top saying that the article did not conform to wikipedia's quality standards, so I went ahead and trimmed the article. I removed excessively flowery language, which made the article seem derived from a sensationalizing book about the Baron. And I removed excess detail, which also makes the article seem derived from some detailed biography about the Baron. Such information would be more interesting for someone looking to dive more deeply into his history, but its distracting in this encyclopedic context.

In particular, here's some explanations for edits I made:

  • Intro - There were too many details that were going to be explained in later sections.
  • Life - There were too many details about his extended family. I left the most notable. I also removed other details about his military career. I removed language like, "contested, ruinous" divorce and "dying childless" as it seems like they are part of a sensational bio.
  • Adaptations - All that's really needed is the basic history of how literary adaptions started, and then a list of some major works that followed. --Philosophistry (talk) 08:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for more content[edit]

I would like to see more content with some examples of the tall tales that are attributed to Munchausen. I've combed through the article to edit it and make it more concise, and yet I still have no idea about what kind of stories he told or the nature of any of his adaptations. --Philosophistry (talk) 08:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Baron Münchausen radio show[edit]

There was a comedy radio show in the 1940s based loosely on the Baron. My high school English teacher in the 1950s would sometimes quote from it when anyone questioned one of HER stories, "Vas you dere, Charlie?" See, e.g., http://www.myoldradio.com/old-radio-episodes/baron-munchausen-vas-you-dere-sharlie-clip/1 DABbio (talk) 11:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Scientific Achievements[edit]

He wrote a six volume work entitled Der Hausvatter (Hanover 1765) online here: https://archive.org/details/derhausvater06mn. A section on microscopy (of fungal infections of wheat/barley) is highly praised by Linnaeus in a dissertation Mundus Invisibilis (Amoenitates academicae vol. 7 395ff. online at http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/botanik/periodical/pageview/4611200). The whole 6 volume work is said by Linnaeus to be about "Oeconomia". I don't know any more about it but if his scientific work was highly regarded by Linnaeus it surely merits dealing with.

See also Marc Ratcliff: The Quest for the Invisible: Microscopy in the Enlightenment 2009 231. R says that M corresponded with Linn.

Northutsire (talk) 20:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The scientist is a different man: Otto von Münchhausen, rather than Hieronymus Karl Friedrich. Otto's WP article is a stub, so please do expand it if you have the time and wherewithal!--Lemuellio (talk) 21:10, 29 November 2014 (UTC)