Talk:Bart Simpson

Mort Simpson

OK, I thought I'd start a topic on the talk page of the article now that it's locked to give us the chance to resolve this.

I cannot find anything in Google to say that Bart was originally going to be called Mort. I have even looked on The Simpsons Wikia and on The Simpsons website and nothing is there. I'm inclined to think that if this was true then it would be stated elsewhere.

In any case, myself and others can't get the video to play. No idea why as I don't understand the error message. I did try to copy the error message on to here but I can't. However if it won't play to everyone then it won't be verifiable to everyone and in that case, if another source can't be found, I'm inclined to think that it has to stay out of the article.

Thoughts anyone?--5 albert square (talk) 23:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I can guarantee it is false. As good as WP:DOH is, collectively we have watched all the current DVD commentaries, and surely something as major as a original name would have shown up. CTJF83 chat 23:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Well actually I have managed to get the video to play, and Bonnie Pietila does indeed mention in it that Bart was very briefly meant to be called Mort. However, the fact that this was only for "one day", which is fairly ambigous and the fact that it hasn't been mentioned anywhere else means it shouldn't be in the article because it isn't notable and may not really be very accurate. Also, for stuff like this, I'd rather here it directly from Matt Groening and he has only ever mentioned he chose Bart instead of his own name because it was an anagram of brat. Gran² 23:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion it has to be mentioned, because Bart Simpson is one of the biggest made-up characters in popular culture and because the article is favorite. --Pek (talk) 23:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Then you need a better, more reliable source then a video that, apparently, most people can't even view. CTJF83 chat 23:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

You need to download Microsoft Silverlight to be able to play it, also you can't play it if you are using Linux. --Pek (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Also the video's site is realible, it is from Finnish MTV3 video bank. --Pek (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a number of Simpsons books and memorabilia talking about the Simpsons and none of it mentions "Mort" anywhere. If it was notable, it would be mentioned somewhere other than on a poorly trafficked website in a video that most of us can't even get to play. I have Silverlight installed -- I use with some programming software on a Windows 7 computer and it still doesn't play for me. Banaticus (talk) 00:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure you have the newest version of Silverlight? I would like also to say that this specific video is very rare footage because it was special interview of Bonita Pietila (who has family roots from Finland) by Finnish media, which is the reason for that Bonita released some very unic information about Bart and talked about episodes where was references to Finland, so overall it is quite special source in my opinion. By the way, here is screenshot of the video (part where Mort was mentioned). --Pek (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

If it was only considered for a day then I'd say this wasn't notable enough to be included in the article. If it's for only one day I'm inclined to believe that it wasn't seriously considered. I'm sure if it was seriously considered it would have been in something other than the source mentioned above by now.--5 albert square (talk) 00:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I just updated Silverlight on Tuesday and a newer version hasn't been released since. It sounds like (if it was only considered "for a day") that it was more of a brainstorming session. Banaticus (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

It was the original plan, original idea, but when The Simpsons aired for first time at The Tracey Ullman Show it was changed before it to Bart. --Pek (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

You're giving "talks of a different name" too much undue weight, with no other source mentioning it. Plus even if there was a reliable source, it definitely does not belong in the opening sentence. CTJF83 chat 00:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I just asked Jim Brooks on Twitter and his response was "not true". I think this wraps the issue up. I can only assume Bonnie has her wires crossed: even if she is correct, it has no place here. Gran² 00:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Jim Brooks even knows anything about the original plans, because it seems like from the video source that Matt Groening only told that plan to Bonnie Pietila, when she had first call with him about The Simpsons. (This info is however more like a speculation, but the fact that Bart was going to be Mort in the original plans it is indeed true.) --Pek (talk) 00:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned, even if true, it gives way too much WP:UNDUE weight, 1 day compared to 23 years as Bart? CTJF83 chat 00:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd normally say that Twitter isn't reliable but that's a verified account so I'm guessing that it's true. Pek, if Matt only suggested that just to Bonnie then to me that suggests it wasn't a serious idea and therefore shouldn't be included. Surely if it was seriously suggested, everyone would be involved in the decision?--5 albert square (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I can't see any question about Mort Simpson there? Also it could be possible that he just doesn't remember it, but I doubt that. Kinda strange that Wikipedia can use Twitter as source since it isn't third-party source if the person itself writes thing there (or thats what I assume how it works). --Pek (talk) 00:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

My bad, I found the question now. It was here. --Pek (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Why would Jim Brooks, the man who was (according the offical line at least) the first person in the world to see the Simpsons, not know the original plans? Groening went to Brooks to pitch Life in Hell, he sketched the Simpsons in the lobby outside his office 15 minutes before going to see him. Apart from Groening he is the single most authoritative source there is. Gran² 00:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

That indeed sounds a bit strange, but I believe more that Brooks didn't know it or don't remember it then the fact that Bonita lied about the name to respected Finnish media MTV3. --Pek (talk) 00:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I could see it possibly being mentioned in an aside like, "One of the names tossed around for the Bart character during brainstorming sessions was Mort" but even that seems a little strong in the face of what we currently "know" -- it flies in the face of too much established Simpsons history. This might be something like the Millikan Oil drop experiment errors, where nobody wanted to differ too much from the first established experiment and experimenters crept up on the results, but I still would want to see this in other sources first. Banaticus (talk) 00:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible to vote for things like this? I mean voting for information in the article. --Pek (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

We go by consensus. If the general consensus is that it should be included in the article then it will be included. If the consensus is that it shouldn't then it won't be included.--5 albert square (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

We are "voting" on it right now by debating facts and precedent. Pek, when I look at the article page, the video itself doesn't work and trying to click on the video link just redirects me to the homepage of the site. Perhaps the site doesn't want to show the link to people in the US. Anyway, since our argument mainly boils down to whether that video is a reliable source compared to Jim Brooks' Twitter post, you might want to go to the Reliable sources/Noticeboard and see how other editors feel about the reliability of that video. :) Banaticus (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for help. --Pek (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

First of all, there's always the possiblity that she was joking. Secondly, as others have mentioned, this is the first time anyone related with the show has mentioned this. In all the interviews with Matt Groening, James L. Brooks, Nancy Cartwright, all of the EPs and all of the writers, nobody has ever mentioned this. Thirdly, if the character even was known as Mort for a single day, who cares? The name never made it into the show or into the merchandise. The only reason the public knows it exists is because it was mentioned, off-hand, by a producer. According to the writing duo of Kogen & Wolodarsky, in their script for Homer's Odyssey, they put Marge's name as Juliet. But, it's not mentioned in her article, because it was a temporary name everybody knew wasn't going to last, and indeed it didn't. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

That most likely was accident, this case isn't accident and it is the first plan ever existed, which in my opinion gives it some reliability. --Pek (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Wait a second here, are you even familiar with the story of The Simpsons and how Matt Groening named the characters? What makes you think that, even if it happened, that it was ever meant to be permanent? Her statement was so ambiguous that for all we know it could also have been a mistake. Why should we ever use that source to go against the common creation story, that Matt Groening created and named the characters in 15 minutes has been around 22 years and has been published in so many reliable sources? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 01:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I should try to contact Bonita somehow and ask hir why this was something which no one ever knew, that was it purposely kept as secret for some reason. --Pek (talk) 02:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I might have something interesting. If you look at this picture, you can see Bart in Life in Hell comics, now if we find a comic where his name is mentioned it should be Mort. That way we can prove that the name Mort was used before The Simpsons and we will also prove that Bonita Pietila is telling truth and then add the information to the article. --Pek (talk) 02:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

You're starting to go a little far here. First of all, how do you know that the image was from before The Simpsons debuted? Secondly, what makes you assume that Bart, renamed Mort, was a regular character in Life in Hell? After all, did she not say FOR ONE DAY (if true, maybe it was just for a casting call)? Finally, I'm not sure why you would possibly take the word of a casting director over the word of the man who created the character. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 02:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

What it comes down to is this: there is one interview which goes against hundreds of interviews given by the likes of Matt Groening, James L. Brooks and Nancy Cartwright. For all we know, she could have been joking. She also does not give any context in her statement: if she's not joking, then it could have been for a casting call, it could have been a mistake. It does not mean that everyone else is lying, or that everyone else does not know the real truth. James L. Brooks was asked on twitter, and he said this is not true. And, if you ignore all of that, it's still a name that the character had for one day, and it never made it to the show, any kind of merchandise, or was considered major enough to be mentioned elsewhere. Nobody else agrees with you that this should be mentioned based on the sources you have provided. I suggest you move on, and maybe it will be mentioned again in another interview in better detail. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 02:53, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

26.9. Suomi-Bonita Simpsoneiden menestyksen takana states in Finnish: "Roolittaja ja tuottaja Bonita Pietila kertoo 45 minuutin erikoishaastattelussa, miten vauhdilla tehty roolitus oikein tapahtui. Hän paljastaa myös, mikä oli Bart Simpsonin alkuperäinen nimi.", which translated in English is: "Casting director and producer Bonita Pietila tells in 45 minuttia -television programs special interview, how "speedly" directing happend. She also reveals what was Bart's original name." Now why the hell would MTV3 write such a thing if they would know it would be just a big joke (or more likely a lie, because I don't see anything "funny" saying: that the character was Mort, not Bart). --Pek (talk) 03:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Even if it wasn'T a joke, it was only one day. Perhaps it was only brainstorming because the name "Mort" wasn't used official and wasn't mentioned in another interview. Until we find a second source, the infomation is not notable to put it into the article. --Morten Haan (talk) 14:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Right, so are we agreed then, unless there is another source also stating this that this should then stay out of the article?--5 albert square (talk) 23:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with that, 5 albert square. AnemoneProjectors 12:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, I can't help but notice that Pek added the exact same thing to the Finnish wiki. I'd remove it there, but he has the advantage as he uses the Finnish wiki (and speaks Finnish) so he'd probably re-add it immediately and I don't have the desire to keep an eye on pages for other language wikis. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:57, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I have messaged Pek and requested that it is removed as per the discussion on this talk page. I'd remove it myself but I don't speak the language so couldn't be sure I was removing the correct information.--5 albert square (talk) 02:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I answered here. --Pek (talk) 07:41, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

"Eat my shorts" redirects to here. This phrase was used in the Breakfast Club way before the Simpsons. At least give some recognition, this article implies that Bart Simpson created this meme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8qb9TRqZsM 3:34 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.131.117 (talk) 08:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I did state the obvious about Bart Simpson. I apologise for my vandalism. You work fast. Well done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pseudo-editor7 (talk • contribs) 23:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)