Talk:Battle of Arsuf

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See original question.
 

Implications of future Muslim victory[edit]

I removed the following sentence from the heading paragraph: "Despite losing the day, Saladin learned valuable lessons about Richard which would help him in later battles." This sentence seems to imply that Richard would eventually be defeated by Saladin in a battle, which did not happen. In the final battles of the Third Crusade outside of Jaffa, Saladin was again utterly defeated by the Crusaders. Indeed, Saladin did not win a single victory in the Third Crusade. The only "victory" Saladin achieved, if any, was passive in that Richard chose not to besiege Jerusalem. -TrueCross

I also removed the link to the "Treaty of Ramla" from the results section, since the treaty would not be drawn up until the end of the Crusade long after Arsuf. After Arsuf Richard would deprive Saladin of more castles and cities before Ramla's agreement, in which Saladin was forced to accept Richard's conquests. -TrueCross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.177.216 (talk) 03:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I also removed the following ending paragraph since it is highly ambiguous and speculaive:

"In terms of the impact of Arsuf on the conduct of the rest of the conflict, the victory in a sense worked against the favour of the crusaders: the loss motivated Saladin to make an important shift in strategies. Saladin realized that Richard was a very capable commander and that it would be extremely difficult to defeat him in another pitched battle. From this point onward, Saladin shifted to a strategy of avoiding direct pitched battle with Richard's main forces in favour of harassing the crusader forces to wear down their strength, a strategy that ultimately succeeded in calling him to the negotiating table."

All primary sources indicate that Saladin was forced to avoid direct battle because his troops were generally afraid of Richard following Arsuf. Saladin's goal was not to bring Richard to the 'negotiating table', it was to drive Richard's army out of the Holy Land and reclaim all the cities taken during Richard's Crusade. The treaty was an uneasy agreement for Saladin as much as it was for Richard. -TrueCross

Saladin's response parag[edit]

"As the Crusader army made camp on the far side of the river at Caesarea, Saladin was making his own dispositions. He had planned to place his army by the old Roman roads further into the interior, allowing him to to attack in any direction as the occasion presented itself. But the coastal advance of the Crusaders compelled him to follow on a parallel course. As the first light harassing attacks failed to have the intended effect these were stepped up in intensity, becoming mini-battles in the process. When Richard's army approached Caesarea on 30 August the rear guard, commanded by Hugh III of Burgundy, came under serious onslaught, cutting it off from the rest of the army for a time. Richard managed to rally the troops, as the whole of the army cried Sanctum Sepulchrum adjuva (Help us, Holy Sepulchure)."

A few problems.

  1. I'm not aware of a river at Caesarea, although I could have a faulty memory and it's possible there was one, but there is no longer.
  2. Chronologically, the parag skips back and forth - it starts with the Crusaders at Caes., but then they're just approaching
  3. The logic of Saladin's thinking isn't apparent. The southward parallel movement could equally be achieved along the Roman roads that went "in any direction". I can't work out what's intended.

Excellent work btw by all concerned - this article's so much improved. It could do with some citations though. --Dweller 11:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction[edit]

"Arsuf was an important victory; but unlike Saladin's early triumph at the Horns of Hattin it was far from decisive" contradicts the claim of a decisive victory in the battle box. --Dweller 11:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

River[edit]

Can anyone help me "find" this river. I seriously doubt it was "at" Caesarea. More likely it was between the Roman roads "in the interior" and Caes. itself. But I'm reticent to amend based on my OR. --Dweller 12:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Another contradiction[edit]

"With the Saracens still intact, Richard decided that the prudent action would be to secure his flank by taking and fortifying Jaffa, thus interrupting the advance on Jerusalem." yet the Lead states that Jaffa was his aim. --Dweller 12:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's a problem. Jaffa was always a target for the Crusade. It would have been unreasonable to attack Jerusalem while Jaffa remained in Muslim hands, since Jaffa is the closest port to Jerusalem. Indeed, during the First Crusade Jaffa was the only port city that the Crusaders bothered to take specifically for this reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.177.216 (talk) 03:21, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 Will someone please fix the casualty figures in table.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.180.26.244 (talk) 18:13, 4 November 2012 (UTC) 

Article overhauled[edit]

I have thoroughly overhauled the article, rewriting much of it, and have introduced a much higher level of citation. Unfortunately, I have had to remove some interesting details which were not supported by my available sources. Why do people go to the effort of writing prose without using inline citations? It isn't particularly difficult to add them. Urselius (talk) 09:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Battle of Arsuf/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: HueSatLum (talk · contribs) 23:51, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I will review. Some issues:

  • More links are needed; entire sections are without links
  • The lead is overall too short; per WP:LEADLENGTH, it should be "two or three paragraphs".
  • I am not sure why "Sultan" links to Ayyubid dynasty.
  • "Mt. Carmel" → "Mount Carmel"
  • Add a {{convert}} for distances
Links: Items are in general only linked once in an article, the lower down an article you get the sparser are the links, as repetitions of terms and referents occur.
Lead: extended it to two paras.
Sultan: There is a difficulty here - you can talk of "King of England" but Saladin held Egypt and Syria in a sort of personal union, and there isn't a geographic or political entity called "Sultanate of Egypt and Syria" to refer to, just the dynasty. I have rearranged the sentence, it's a bit clunky but probably reasonable.
That's fine, I just wouldn't expect that to link there. HueSatLum 01:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Mt.: OK, done
Distances: No idea how to this, I'm just a writer and I'm a computer-phobe.
Yes check.svg Done HueSatLum 01:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    Good.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Plenty of references.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Covers all aspects of the battle.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    Neutrally written.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    Very stable.
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Images are all free.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    Quite well-written and informative. HueSatLum 01:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks for your help. Urselius (talk) 08:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)