Talk:Battle of Ilomantsi

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

• Ensured that this article is: within project scope, tagged for task forces, and assessed for class.

• This article would benefit from: in-text citations. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Strength and casualties of the battle

As User:Tbma marked there a request for sources ie. the {{fact}} template i guess it might be better if these were properly discussed

From 'Ilomantsi - lopultakin voitto' book (Antti Juutilainen, Rauma 1994)

Soviet strength:

Soviet strength for the most of the battle consisted of 2 infantry divisions (289th and 176th of 32nd Army of Karelian front). What is known is that at least 289 had rocket artillery (Katyusha rocket launcher ?) support as well as several light armors (of T-26, T-60 and T-70 types). Nominal fighting strength of these formations alone would have been above 20 000. However it is known that Karelian front had been unable to fully replenish or man the units so average strength of a Karelian front division was roughly 7 400 men instead of nominal ~10 000 men. Also it is further noted that the Finnish delay tactics were apparently costly to the advance Soviet formation as at least one of the regiments (52nd of the 176th division) was roughly at 50% strength (1222 instead of nominal 2443) when the battle actually began.

Soviet strength was increased later with three marine brigades (3rd, ,69th and 70th), one armor brigade (29th) and 'special troops' (3 battalions from 1st separate construction brigade, I battery of 1237th heavy artillery regiment, 63rd Guards mortar/rocket artillery regiment, 280th & 898th mortar regiments). However all these formations were understrength and in some cases (having suffered casualties) clearly understrength. Also combat formations were deployed directly after long marches so they were fatigued even before engaging the Finns.

All in all 2 divisions, 3 marine brigades, 1 armor brigade, 3 artillery/mortar regiments, 3 infantry battalions. The Finnish source i used had no knowledge of the Russian actual strength. Nominal strength of the 2 divisions (10 000 x 2), 3 marine brigades (at least 3 000 x 3), 1 armor brigade (several thousand), 3 artillery regiments (all presumable having nominal strength at 2 000 - 3 000 men)... all in all the nominal strength of the the units of the 32nd Army that took part into the battle is much closer (perhaps even over) 40 000 men than 30 000 men.

Finnish losses:

Problem with getting an accurate number for Finnish losses is that the whole group/detachment R was a temporary formation consisting of 2 separate brigades (21st and Cavalry) and some auxiliary units. There is a 'complete' casualties list for the operation but this omits at least one or two days casualties (it ends just before the Soviets broke through the encirclement and escaped to east). It lists the casualties as 227 KIA, 1389 WIA. It includes the troops as how the left the unit roster (ie. some WIA's most likely ended up as KIA). In addition a separate list of Cavalry Brigade's losses mentions that it lost 249 (178) KIA, 1263 (1016) WIA, 52 MIA/POW (values inside the '()' are the ones included in the above casualties listing). Writer himself concludes that as an estimate the total losses (KIA + MIA + WIA + POW) from the Finnish side were 2 500.

Soviet losses:

Finnish source did not use Soviet data but instead relied on Finnish reports on Soviet losses. Which again cut off just before the Soviet retreat. Finns estimated Soviet losses as 'until 8.8.' as roughly 2800 men (926 KIA, 141 POW, unconfirmed KIA/WIA ~ 1750). In addition a unit commander remarked that on 9.8.1944 the Soviets lost additional 400 KIA and 45 POW. Which according to writer with usual assumption of 2 or 3 WIAs per one KIA/MIA ends up with estimate of 5 500 to 7 500 men.

As said both values (Finnish 2 500 and Soviet 5 500 - 7 500) are just writers own opinions or estimates, not solid facts. I hope some one else has better or more accurate sources than what i have used. - Wanderer602 (talk) 12:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

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