Talk:Battle of the Bogside

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Stormont gerrymandering[edit]

Removed this line: "This gerrymandering resulted in nationalists, despite being in a majority, returning one candidate from Derry to the Northern Ireland Parliament, while unionists also one." From this map it can be seen that there were two seats for Derry, one for the West Bank and the other for the East Bank. They had similar electorates and in each around 35% went to Labour candidates with the rest going to Nationalist candidates (in Foyle) and Unionist candidates (in City of Londonderry). Gerrymandering at local level? Absolutely. But at Stormont level, with the exception of Fermanagh not that significant as it wasn't necessary to maintain Unionist control given their large majority. Valenciano (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Valenciano, I'm a little concerned about this. Nationalist accounts really stress that gerrymandering in Derry was something they were very concerned about. There were articles calling Derry "Ireland's fascist city" and stuff like that, so I'd want to be really sure before we remove this. I'll go and get some sources and see what I find. Jdorney (talk) 21:14, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, turns out you're right Valenciano,the problem was in the council, not the Stormont parliament. According to Tim Pat Coogan's, The Troubles, p37-38, Derry's population in 1961 was 53,744, (36,049 Cath, 17,695 Prot), but due to the division of electoral wards, unionists had a majority of 12-8 on the city council, which gave them control over the allocation of public housing and the means to perpetuate the situation. Jdorney (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Jdorney. It's a fact that gerrymandering took place at local level but at state level, well, the gerrymandering had already been done when the state was created and thereafter Unionists didn't need to worry about Catholic voting strength. Even in 1973, the first post Stormont election, Nationalists only won 19 out of 78 seats with Unionists winning 50. Consensus in the sources I've seen is that gerrymandering at state level was confined to Fermanagh, where a Nationalist majority won only one of the three seats, and possibly Armagh. Derry city itself was only entitled to 1 and a half seats and the extra voters for the second seat could only come from the nearby Unionist Waterside areas. Consensus is also that the switch from PR to first past the post was aimed at the Northern Ireland Labour Party and Independent Unionists who had gained seats at the 1925, though these are really issues for another article.
As for your edit though, there's a problem since in the UK electoral boundaries were (and still are) drawn on the basis of registered electorates on a fixed date, not on the basis of population, so such an analysis by Coogan ignores the fact that there were more Catholics under the age of 18 and thus isn't really a fair comparison. A comparison of Catholics at voting age would be. The CAIN/John Whyte analysis I posted above gives a better analysis of the situation and I'll add in some of the stuff from that. Valenciano (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
No problem. I would prefer if the new material were added to the population data rather than replacing it however. Jdorney (talk) 20:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Good work Valenciano, I made a few small edits for format and readability. I always get a little concerned when these articles get too long and detailed. This is actually one of my main concerns with controversial Irish history articles right now. Jdorney (talk) 23:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian, the other reversion you did on me jut now in History of NI explains the ratepayer franchise and reveals that the 'fact' you brought back from your reliable source is wrong. At least be discreetly inconsistent. --Fynire (talk) 01:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Londonderry v. Derry[edit]

The correct legal name of the city is "Londonderry". Derry is commonly used by nationalists and perhaps it is advisable for someone to add "/Derry" everywhere Londonderry is mentioned. However, to remove the name 'Londonderry' all together, appears to be a biased attempt to erase the non-Irish republican Protestant Ulster-Scots heritage in Northern Ireland in an attempt at historical cyber ethnic cleansing. Only the City council is correctly referred to as "Derry". —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndySCO (talkcontribs) 14:56, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The city is known as Derry on Wikipedia, not by any other name. O Fenian (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite funny coming from someone by the username "O Fenian". Far from impartial considering the history of the city in discussion. Which IS recognised even by the constitution of the Republic of Ireland as being sovereign British territory. Furthermore, Northern Irish Law recognises the City as being named "Londonderry" under the Royal Charter that created the city signed by James VI, King of Scots in 1613. This has been confirmed by the High Court - the only body that may change the name of the city is Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth - by royal prerogative. The law trumps a style guide which is incorrect and thus out of date. Derry City Council has recently applied to the Privy Council to change the name of the City, however as of this date the correct usage by NORTHERN IRISH Law, is and remains "Londonderry".

AndySCO (talk) 15:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Just like me, Wikipedia does not care what UK laws or courts say. The city is known as Derry on Wikipedia, no matter how much you stamp your feet. O Fenian (talk) 15:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Its actually a Northern Irish court, which even Sinn Fein-IRA recognise, so i'm going to assume you're a southerner interfering in the affairs of British majority Ulster. Accordingly following the style guide, I have amended the article to include the county and country names which are recognised by wikipedia as being "County Londonderry", "Northern Ireland", and "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", no matter how much you stamp your feet Fenian.

AndySCO (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

We do not generally include county names when referring to the city of the same name, "Armagh, County Armagh" and "Galway, County Galway" are redundant, since everyone knows where they are. Just as everyone knows that at present England, Scotland, Wales and the North form the United Kingdom, we do not generally include "United Kingdom" when talking about any of the constituent countries, "England, United Kingdom" is quite pointless. We do not generally use the long-form name of the United Kingdom either. O Fenian (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, we do. Scotland is a distinct part of the United Kingdom under the Act of Union 1707, just as Ulster is under the Act of Union 1801 and the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 and the Good Friday Agreement. To refer to "Scotland" would be to indicate that the country was a sovereign state. It is a nation within a Union state. The correct reference is Scotland, United Kingdom. Also "Derry" is not the same as "Londonderry" as is evidenced by the strength of feeling on both sides - and the fact UK or Irish passports may be issued in either format. This is why the term "stroke city" is often used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndySCO (talkcontribs) 16:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

We don't include county names with county towns as they are redundant, and so is UK when Northern Ireland is already there. Domer48'fenian' 17:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

AndySCO, the Derry/Londonderry stuff has been discussed ad nauseam [Talk:Derry/Archive_1#Requested_move and the result is always the same:] support for the existing compromise which uses Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. It's a decent compromise which has saved lots of wasted time. If you want the name changed I suggest you raise the issue on the Derry talkpage though you'll probably notice that many others have flogged that dead horse before you. Valenciano (talk) 17:56, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Domer48, the county seat of County Londonderry is Coleraine, not Londonderry. Confusing, but true - it doesn't quite make sense to me either.

Valenciano, the point is, the name of the city actually is Londonderry by NI Law, which is supposedly supported by cross-community consensus. I have no issue if the name is actually changed by law, but by using one without another in the context of Northern Ireland, it gives a political gloss to the article leaning one side or another. Hence why if one is used rather than a 'stroke city' format, then it is proper to call it Derry, County Londonderry - or vice versa as folk see fit. It may as well have a Celtic F.C. football jersey on in the background if one is used consistently over the other. Due to the sensitivity of the situation, folk attempt to include elements of both Republican and Unionist usage. It seems logical to do the same here. Hence why so many folk have attempted to flog that horse. This is in the interests of impartiality, or it simply seems an assault on Protestant Ulster-Scots custom in N.I. There is nothing wrong with folk referring to it as "Derry" or "County Derry" as they see fit in personal usage - but using one without another results in a Sectarian shibboleth that calls into question the impartiality of the article.

82.6.40.200 (talk) 18:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

A stroke city style compromise has been suggested on the Derry page but has been rejected. It's best to make the point there but generally style wise Wikipedia doesn't go for multiple names, see San Sebastián for example. Valenciano (talk) 18:56, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes I know it was rejected. San Sabastian is officially named Donostia-San Sebastián now - its not actually a multiple name, thats its official name. I would instead suggest Derry, County Londonderry at the start of the article - by allowing both usages, this is not in violation of the style guide, is not false, and gives ample respect to both traditions and seems quite in keeping with the peace process, even if only used on the place name at the beginning of the article - it does not deny the existence of both customs by sweeping one under the carpet. Respect for both names is practiced by both the British and the Irish governments now. Acceptance of this in principle is shown on the Londonderry page where at the start of the article, both forms are used.

82.6.40.200 (talk) 19:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I am constantly amazed by the amount of time and space taken up by people over essentially trivial matters like this. Usually people who take no interest in improving the quality of the content of the articles. We have a policy on this on wikipedia - Derry for the city, Londonderry for the county. If youy want to change policy then go to the relevant forum. Don't clog up teh article talk page. Jdorney (talk) 10:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Missing info[edit]

Nothing in the article about the police being undermanned and the amount of hours they had to do. Or the fact that they became exhausted which is why the B Specials were called in. It's relevant and needs to go in. Tired police make mistakes, and if the B Specials had to be deployed who knows what would have happened as they had no training and no riot gear, just batons, rifles and Sten guns. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)