Talk:Battle of the Coral Sea

List of open questions

As I edit this article, I'm going to list questions here that I haven't been able to answer so far. I haven't read all of the references yet, but I want to get these down before I forget them. If someone has an answer to any of them and a source to back it up, your input is much appreciated. Cla68 (talk) 08:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• Why didn't MacArthur's land-based army aircraft or the RAAF provide air cover for Crace's force on May 7 and 8? Was he too far away from land? Partial answer in Crave, p. 450 that there was poor coordination between Nimitz' and MacArthur's commands.
• Which destroyer did Takagi send to pick up the two downed aircraft crews from Indispensible Reef on May 7? Was it Ariake? Cressman appears to indicate that it was Ariake.
• Did Tamotsu Ema, Zuikaku's dive bomber group leader, survive the battle? A Japanese book listed here appears to have been written by Ema. If so, it appears that he survived the war.
• Was Kamikawa Maru anchored at Deboyne Island the entire time that that Japanese seaplanes were operating from there, or did it drop the air group off and then return to retrieve them later? What day did the Japanese evacuate the Deboyne base and which ships were involved? Gillison (p. 527) reports that B-25 bombers which attacked Deboyne on May 10 did not see the ship present, but several floatplanes were moored in the bay.
• Did Zuikaku deliver the Zeros to the Tainan Air Group at Rabaul before returning to Truk after the battle? Yes.
• Which Japanese submarines were actually assigned as fleet scouts for the operation and which were in the area but on different missions? The sources on this are confusing, with some stating that four submarines were assigned for scouting, but others stating that five or six submarines were in the Coral Sea area. Fixed in article. Two subs off Port Moresby (RO-33 & 34), four in a scouting line in the Coral Sea (I-22, I-24, I-28, & I-29), and two sent to scout Noumea (I-21 and I-27).
• Did the US, based on radio intelligence, deploy submarines to try to intercept and sink Shōkaku and Zuikaku during their return trips to Japan after the battle? If so, which submarines were deployed and where? Yes, but the US was unable to decipher the coordinates giving the carriers' exact return route. Three subs (Gar, Greenling, and Tautog) were stationed off Truk. Four others were positioned along the direct route between Truk and Japan. Only one sub, Triton sighted one of the carriers (believed to be Shōkaku) but was unable to attack.(Holmes, p. 74). Shōkaku did not return via Truk, instead heading directly for Japan. Tautog sank I-28 as it returned to Truk.
• Exactly how many men were assigned to Neosho and how many died/survived? Pre-attack muster: 288. Known dead in attack: 20. Post attack muster: 110. Post-attack unaccounted for: 158. Number eventually rescued: 109 from ship, four from open ocean.
• How many Japanese SNLF troops were in the invasion convoy? Approximately 500 (Bullard, p. 147).
• Who exactly did Nielsen see at 08:15 on May 7, Marumo or Gotō? The sources aren't clear. Saw Gotō (Lundstrom 2006)
• How many Allied troops were defending Port Moresby? 1,088 in Dec '41 (McCarthy, p. 12). 3,000 on 2 May '42 between New Caledonia, Port Moresby, and Portugese Timor (McCarthy, p. 31). Two additional battalions, but specific numbers not given, were sent in January '42 and these were the last sent to the city before the battle (McCarthy, p. 82, 112). Willmott (1983), p. 143 states that 4,250 troops were delivered on 3 Jan 42, giving a total of 5,333. That seems to me to mean that even had the Japanese been able to land their 5,500 invasion troops, their success in the land battle was not assured.
• How many Japanese transports in the invasion convoy? Some sources say 11, some 12. There were 11 transports originally in the convoy, but were joined by a special, anti-aircraft transport a day later. Six of the original 11 were large Army transports with and the remaining five were smaller Navy transports.
• Morison, p. 38, reports that the B-17s which mistakenly attacked Crace's force on May 7 took photographs of Crace's ships during the incident. Are these pictures available somewhere? A picture of this incident is apparently included in Eric Salecker's "Fortress against the sun", Combined Publishing, ISBN 1-58097-049-4 opposite page 242 (upper image). I've ordered the book and will post my results once I get it. It's possible that AWM photo # 128127 is of the incident in question, but the caption doesn't confirm this.
• Gillison, p. 519 states that an RAAF Hudson attacked a Japanese submarine south of the Louisiades on May 7 and claimed two bomb hits. Also, on p. 527 three separate attacks on submarines by two Hudsons and a B-25 off Townsville on May 10. Do any of the TROMs for the Japanese submarines known to have been operating in the area confirm these? No.
• Tenryu's TROM states that seaplane tender Kiyokawa Maru set up the seaplane base at Rekata Bay, Santa Isabel to support the Tulagi landings and remained there while Kamikawa Maru went to set up the base at Deboyne. No other sources confirm this, instead saying that Kamikawa set up both bases and the base on Santa Isabel was in Thousand Ships Bay, not Rekata. Which is true? The seaplane tender TROMs appear to indicate that Kiyokawa Maru was not present but its aircraft unit complemented Kamikawa Maru's unit. The sources appear to indicate that once Tulagi was in operation the Santa Isabel base was abandoned.

I just checked the Australian official histories for information on the first point, but found nothing. Pages 517-524 of Royal Australian Air Force, 1939–1942 imply that the force at Port Moresby was small and too busy preparing to resist invasion while searching for the Japanese ships to do anything else and that coordination between the air forces and navy was poor (Crace's force was attacked by USAAF aircraft who were totally unaware that an Allied force was in the area). I've read elsewhere that the small Australian fighter force at Port Moresby had suffered heavy casualties in raids on the town and had almost no aircraft left by the time of this battle. Nick-D (talk) 10:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I need to add that source to the reference list. Once I have the information in the article I'll cross that question off of the list. Cla68 (talk) 02:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the translated version of the Japanese official history which was published by the Australian War Memorial, the Port Moresby invasion convoy was carrying all of the Kure 3rd SNLF other than the unit sent to Tulagi. It doesn't provide the number of troops this involved though. The book has a fairly detailed account of the Japanese perspective on the battle which might be useful by the way. Nick-D (talk) 07:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again. I'll try to hold off posting more questions until I read more of the remaining sources, including that one. Now that the unit is identified I'm fairly sure that I can figure out how many SNLF troops were probably embarked. Cla68 (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

In regards to your question on the Japanese submarines, the book Sunk. The Stury of the Japanese Submarine Fleet 1942-1945 by Mochitsura Hashimoto states that six subs were involved - RO 33 and 34 reconnoitered Russell Island, the Deboyne Anchorages, the Jomard Channel and the route eastwards of Port Moresby. I 22, 24, 28 and 29 also formed part of the Japanese force used in the battle, though the book is vauge on where they were stationed - perhaps Combinedfleet.com will have some information? Nick-D (talk) 02:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I've just added information on the subs. It's unclear whether I-21 was involved in the battle, so I've removed the specific reference to her as this might be a case of mistaken identity - combinedfleet.com says that she left Rabaul with the invasion force on her tabular record of movement, but doesn't mention her on the other subs' records... She may have been bound for Australia and was passing through the area during the battle. Nick-D (talk) 03:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Your information and source look solid. Just in case, I asked about it at the CombinedFleet.com message board. Cla68 (talk) 04:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the submarines. I think that the question on the Japanese sub involvement is now answered. Cla68 (talk) 00:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Excellent - happy to help. Nick-D (talk) 07:56, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

"The US was apparently unaware that Shōkaku went directly to Japan without stopping at Truk (Holmes, p. 74)." Without Holmes (DES?) in front of me, I can't refute this, but Blair (pp.230-1 & 233) says U.S. intelligence underestimated her amount of damage, & hence rate of advance, hence Gar, Grampus, & Tautog couldn't catch her at Truk (& she only stayed there briefly), while Greenling was on the wrong side of the lagoon & didn't see her arrive, & Bob Rice's Drum, Pilly Lent's Grenadier, & Stan Mosely's Pollack (in Empire waters) all missed her, again due to underestimation of her roa, & Kilpatrick in Triton spotted her at 6700yd & couldn't close to firing position. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 05:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Blair appears to be indicating that Shōkaku returned to Japan via Truk. The other sources I looked at, including her TROM at Combinedfleet.com, imply that she went direct to Japan while her sister ship only made a brief stop at Truk. To try to clear this up, I've again posted the question to the experts at Combinedfleet's discussion forum. Cla68 (talk) 06:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I won't exclude Blair got it wrong, if (as it appears) it was widely believed at the time she had; it may not have been known in '75 she went straight home. Certainly no contact was made outside Empire waters.

On Ryūkaku, my reading of Holmes suggests Hypo had IDd Shōhō already, & misread the kanji, adding Ryūkaku to IJN strength. I may, however, have misunderstood the situation. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 19:11 & 19:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

No one has answered my question yet on Tully's board, if no one does, I'll try the J-Aircraft forum. In the meantime, we can add the Blair info to the article. Which edition of Blair's book do you have? Also, I mentioned in footnote 13 about the US confusion about Shōhō's name. Cla68 (talk) 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I missed the fn ref. :( I'm using the '76 Bantam PB. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 01:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Done, and thanks also for the copyediting help. Cla68 (talk) 04:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Recent Edits

I just made a few modifications, this does not disrupt or remove any of your work, contrary to what -MBK004 assumed.

• "Who Won" to "Tactical and Strategic Implications"
• I lumped together the ship losses with the aircrew losses.
• I added back in the strategic implications about Port Moresby, as it includes links to related campaigns like the Kokoda Track campaign and the Battle of Milne Bay.
• Some minor changes to Midway.

GoldDragon (talk) 01:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Your edits seemed ok to me, but I think a couple of editors, in good faith, objected to the changes to some of the existing information and disagreed with one of the points that you made. You might try adding the edits a little at a time which should help at least some of them to "stick". Cla68 (talk) 06:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of losses to aircrew and Japanese training programs, I suggest that it be moved to "A New Kind of Naval Warfare", along with the section where it says that the Japanese pilots performed better. GoldDragon (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Miles & miles & miles

I realize this is a fairly big job, but I'm troubled by the casual use of "miles" & the presumption it means "statute miles" & can readily be converted to kilimeters. Navy writers (not least Morison) may habitually use nautical miles, especially in reference to sea distances.... So, what may be needed (& we would do with having here) is a) thoroughgoing check of mi/nm/km (which IMO is no small task) & b) standardization of usage where confusion may arise (presuming it doesn't already exist). My question amounts to, "What form is the source using, & has it been converted correctly?" Seeing Cla68 has already made a pretty careful pass through here, maybe this can be answered (even has already been handled); if not...? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 12:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that's probably a good catch. All the miles used in the sources are probably nautical miles. So I think I need to go through and change the nomenclature in the conversion templates from "mi" to "nmi". Cla68 (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Cla68 (talk) 13:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thx. (This is why I prefer to use km... ;D ). TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 13:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Using kilometers as a measure only serves to obscure the REAL distances involved, by articifially inflating them. Couldn't we just stick with REAL measures of distances instead of the contrived metric ones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.122.97 (talk) 16:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Have you missed the point? Those "real measures" leave in doubt what the actual distances were: 100 nmi (185 km) or 100 mi (161 km)? Because they're both "100 miles"... OTOH, 185 km can be converted to any other length measurement that suits you. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:06, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit comments from Maralia

Lead & Section 1

1. Why "May 4 – May 8, 1942"? MOS says not to repeat the month.
2. Left an inline comment in the lead: Zuikaku is not explicitly mentioned, so it is difficult to understand why "the two Japanese fleet carriers were unable to participate" at Midway.
3. If the parentheses in this quote are used to indicate inserted words, they should be square brackets instead: "(eject) British and American strength from the Netherlands Indies and the Philippines, (and) to establish a policy of autonomous self-sufficiency and economic independence."

More to come as I make my way through the article. Maralia (talk) 22:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the date and clarified the information about Zuikaku. The parentheses appear to have been included in the original quote. Cla68 (talk) 21:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Morning strikes

• Is it Nielson or Nielsen? Both spellings are used several times.
• This sentence needs some work: "At 08:15, a Yorktown SBD, piloted by John L. Nielsen, sighted Gotō's force screening the invasion convoy and, making an error in his coded message, reported it as..." In the first part of the sentence, the subject is the SBD; the latter half ("making an error in his coded message, reported...") states the actions of Nielson. Not sure which way to fix this one, since it's not clear whether Nielson himself sighted the force.

Maralia (talk) 21:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• Nielsen is the correct spelling and I made the necessary corrections and also split the problematic sentence [1]. Cla68 (talk) 12:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Remainder of the article

• I was left a little confused by the section about the sinking of Lexington. After reading that "the carrier's crew was rescued", the subsequent statement that "Two-hundred sixteen of the carrier's 2,951-man crew went down with the ship" was a bit discordant. Presumably the 216 were those who had been killed in the battle, explosions, and fires?
• The first two sources listed in Web sources need accessdates.
• In the Notes, the mentions of articles (for lack of a better word), such as those by Hackett and Tully, incorrectly use italics for the titles. They are all listed properly (in quote marks) in the web sources section, but the Notes need to be tweaked to match.

I think that's it. Thanks for being patient as it took me a while to get to (and through) it. A great read! Maralia (talk) 21:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• Done. Thank you very much for the outstanding copyediting help. Cla68 (talk) 01:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Picking nits

• "VF-2 Squadron". This is redundant. VF means "fighter squadron"; I deleted. I also tried to clear up the awk phrasing over squadron & ship where I noticed it.
• "near the maximum range for carrier aircraft." American or Japanese? The USN ROA was around 175nm; IJN's, AFAIK, was quite a bit longer.
• "The fighters were Type 0s". I changed this from Zero to stay consistent with the other types IDd. Throughout, I also deleted the redundant "Zero", or changed it to "fighter", where it's clear it's IJN; it's not like there were USN Zekes.
• "within range, about 200 nautical miles (370 km)"? Is this for IJN or USN?
• "Land-based B-17s attacked the approaching Port Moresby" I deleted "land-based", since I really doubt anybody thinks B-17s are carrier-based... I'd prefer to say where they flew from, rather than "land", anyhow; does anyone ;p know?

• Done. The B-17s were all based in Australia but staged through Port Moresby to extend their range into the Coral Sea, Louisiades, and Solomon Sea. I probably need to explain that somewhere in one of the footnotes. Thank you for the help in completing the article. I'm going to go ahead and nominate it for A-Class review. Cla68 (talk) 01:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

No thanx needed. I want it as good as it can be, too. Oh, & I see I wasn't clear: "within range" of IJN or USN, I mean, given the different ROA. (Already answered, I see...) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 15:20, 15:21 & 15:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking at it again, I now see I didn't read carefully enough. :( The passage specifically mention's Takagi's staffers; obviously, they know their range. I was wondering if the writer was presuming the ROA was the same, but if this is taken from IJN sources (even indirectly), it would be using the right ones. In short, I goofed. *sigh*

Looking at "orders to fly 277 degrees", I wonder, is that 277 relative or 277 true? (I can't keep the pic in my head where Takagi is relative to Fletcher & Crace...) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 15:30 & 15:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Abbreviation for U.S.

Per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(abbreviations), U.S. is more standard in American English that US. A change from U.S. to US should be discussed. Note that in most WW2 Pacific theater battle articles, as far as I am aware, U.S. has been used. An inconsistency in this article versus others and an inconsistency with the standard does not seem right, especially for an FAC. I've reverted the recent change. Please discuss here for consensus before making such a change.

I've used both versions in articles I've submitted for FA and both were accepted by reviewers. I think either one is probably ok even though the MoS appears to favor U.S. Cla68 (talk) 00:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

For consistency, I find U.S. preferable. See for example Battle of Guadalcanal (FA), Battle of Wake Island, and Battle of Iwo Jima. — ERcheck (talk) 00:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Then why didn't you change the instances of 'US' to 'U.S.' during your reversion of my edit? Consistency. Binksternet (talk) 01:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I thought I did that.... I'll double check. I just did an "undo". So, I take it you don't object? ~ — ERcheck (talk)

All I care about is that the same style be used from top to bottom, except for quotes and titles. When I took a look earlier today, it was half one way, half the other. Binksternet (talk) 04:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Note on sources for readers interested in further reading

Readers of this article may have noticed that the list of sources is quite long. That's because there currently isn't, as far as I know, an English-language "definitive" account of the battle using up-to-date western and Japanese sources which have become available within the last 20 years or so. John Lundstrom has stated in a off-site forum [2] that he and Jim Sawruk have a book on the battle in the works but it will be several years until it's published. Until then, I suggest the following books for those interested in reading more about the battle, because these books appear to have the most up-to-date details, although they limit the scope of their coverage somewhat:

• Lundstrom, John B. (2006). Black Shoe Carrier Admiral: Frank Jack Fletcher at Coral Sea, Midway, and Guadalcanal. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 1-59114-475-2. 
• Lundstrom, John B. (2005 (New edition)). The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 159114471X. 
• Willmott, H. P. (1983). The Barrier and the Javelin: Japanese and Allied Pacific Strategies February to June 1942. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 0-87021-535-3. 

Cla68 (talk) 14:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Willmott is excellent on Midway, but IIRC, he treats Coral Sea a bit cursorily. For all that, his is the best account I've seen. (Which is not to say I've read them all. ;p) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 03:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Size matters

Maybe I'm nitpicking for nothing, but I'm stumbling on "small" rather than "smaller". The custom I've seen reserves "small" for ships the size of PCs, & "smaller" for DDs or SSs. Do the accounts cited mean DDs damaged/sunk (as I'd presume, given few PT/PC-size craft involved)? If so, I suggest changing it back. Thoughts? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 03:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Your suggestion seems fine to me. Cla68 (talk) 04:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

K. Also, would you say OK to remove the 40h's B-17? That strikes me an operational more than a combat loss. (I'm not strongly pro/con either way.) If you're OK, will you take it out? My eyes are starting to play tricks on me... ;p TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:09 & 04:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

A few of the carrier aircraft losses, both US and Japanese, were also operational losses. For example, several US carrier aircraft became lost returning from missions and disappeared. Anyway, I don't mind taking out the B-17. I'll remove it from the total tally but leave a note about it in the footnote. Cla68 (talk) 04:21, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove the B-17. Loosmark (talk) 04:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

As noted, I'm not fanatic either way, Loos, so if you want it back in, feel free. That sole B-17 running out of fuel just slapped me as an obvious operational loss that could be taken out. For most of the others, I think running out of fuel after an attack quals as "combat", just as Fletcher's DBs ditching at Midway would. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 20:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

HMAS Australia (D84) and USAAF friendly bombing...help identify sources?

Hi all. I'm working on a rewrite of HMAS Australia (D84), and am trying to sort out information regarding to the USAAF friendly fire incident mentioned in this article (citation/footnote 59). The text I have at the moment is:

A few minutes later, the ships were attacked by another three heavy bombers, flying at a higher altitude to the first group; the bombing was much less accurate. It was later learned that the three aircraft belonged to the United States Army Air Force (USAAF). Although USN Vice Admiral Herbert F. Leary made plans to train aircrews in naval vessel recognition in response, USAAF General George Brett refused to implement them or acknowledge that the friendly fire incident had happened.

At the moment, that's all sourced to Gill's Royal Australian Navy, 1942–1945, p. 50 (with some educated guesswork to identify the USAAF and Brett at their respective points), which according to the footnote misidentifies the aircraft involved (I originally followed Gill, but based on what's said here stripped out that claim). Would someone be able to improve the text to identify the aircraft (and if possible, a reason for the oops) and provide a source (hopefully not all eight cited in the footnote) to supplement Gill? Thanks in advance! -- saberwyn 02:28, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Sight unseen

This box, {{Campaignbox Battle for Australia}}, is producing peculiar crowding of text on the left of my screen on Safari, while there's a message at the bottom of the campaign box. Can somebody fix? I don't just want to delete... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 08:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Scale of Miles on Map

In the map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coral_sea.jpg the scale of miles seems to be incorrect by a factor of 6. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.143.79 (talk) 18:35, 12 March 2012 (UTC)