Talk:Battle of the Hornburg

This article was nominated for deletion on 20 November 2019. The result of the discussion was keep.

	This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.Middle-earthWikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earthTemplate:WikiProject Middle-earthTolkien articles
Note: Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material before the current action must be written in past tense. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards for more information about this and other article standards.

Untitled[edit]

Someone actually made a page about a fake battle, how lame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TJ13090 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why the sentence "The evil men fell on their faces" is needed, I haven't read the books in a few years, was there a particular emphesis on this? If so, it should be stated better. In the way its written now it kinda sounds like they tripped and fell, oops. —siro χ o 01:56, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

Well, we do need to mention what happened to the evil men in order to conclude "Rohan won the battle". I agree that it could be better stated. The passage in the book says, "The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him." Basically both the wild men and the Orcs lost control. I'm not sure how to fix this in the article, but I'll take a stab at it. Eric119 03:03, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Changed number of Rohirrim present to 2,000 + 1,000. The original 2,000 are the 1,000 under Gamling and the 1,000 under Theoden. Then Erkenbrand's 1000 come. Maeglin Lómion 07:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Battle of Helm's Deep"[edit]

According to The Encyclopedia of Arda (which is usually an excellent source), the proper name for this battle is "Battle of the Hornburg", and "Battle of Helm's Deep" was never used by Tolkien. Why, then, is this article at the latter location? Can we move it to Battle of the Hornburg and include a note in the article starting that the popularity of "Battle of Helm's Deep" derives from the movie? There is, in fact, a reference in Letters in which Tolkien quite emphatically states that Hornburg is a better designation than Helm's Deep, since most of it takes place at the fortress (the Hornburg) rather than in the ravine behind it (Helm's Deep). [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 18:23, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think you're probably right. The chapter in TTT is called "Helm's Deep", but I think the battle is named after the fortress [1]. —siro χ o

I concur. This is the name used in the appendices to LotR. Eric119 02:16, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In that case, we probably need to get someone to delete the redirect so that we can move this to Battle of the Hornburg. (Or, hey, maybe not! It worked! Now we need to clean up references from other articles.) [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 14:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It still says "Helms Deep" on the "War of the Ring" category thing. That should be standardized. Savidan 03:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Was Gandalf a commander?[edit]

I havn't read the book in a long time so this may be incorrect, but certainly in the film 'The Two Towers' Gandalf while being a participant in the battle is not present for much of the time, "Look for me on the morning of the third(?) day". While this is an important contribution I am not so sure it warrants the title of commander --Shadow Dancer 994 00:37, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that Gandal didn't arrive until the fifth or sixth day. I don't have the books in front of me right now, but I know it was deffinately more than was portrayed in the movie. 10th at most I think. Litlest amazon 06:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC) [Litlest amazon][reply]

Orc Numbers and extra information - Jackson version[edit]

Can anone provide a source claiming the number of each type of Uruk-hai in the Jackson version of Helms Deep? I find it very questionable. Also, is it really necessary to also mention that The Battle of Pellanor Fields also take up one chapter? --Eldarone 22:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did the Orc numbers thing, but I did NOT do the pelennor chapter thing. Oh, yeah, but there really was 100 berserkers. I got it from LOTR weapons and warefare. --User:Shadow-Stalker

Is that one of the Offical Movie guide books? If it is, then that would be acceptable source for the movie battle. I'm also thinking about removing the Pelennor ields mention. It's kind of pointless. --Eldarone 01:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well...should I change the orc numbers thing? --User:Shadow-Stalker

As long as it's from an verfiable source, and the numbers are accurate, then the orc numbers can stay --Eldarone 20:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was kinda an estimate...User:Shadow-Stalker

that could be a problem then. How was the numbers estimated? --Eldarone 02:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Changed the links[edit]

The links on the second line were for Hornburg and not for Helm's Deep, and they led to some German town, so i changed it to Helm's Deep.

Weapons and Warfare info[edit]

Aside from the Orc numbers, does this book have info about the numbers of the Rohirrim and Huorns beyond what is said in the Jackson film? Uthanc 01:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The number Erkenbrand's reinforcements is clearly stated by Tolkien in the second to last paragraph of of chapter 7, book 3 "Helm's Deep": "Behind him hastening down in long slopes, were a thousand men on foot; their swords were in their hands."

About Théoden's host, that leaves Meduseld, he says this, in chapter 6 "The King and the Golden Hall": "At the gate they found a great host of men, old and young, all ready to saddle. More than a thousand were there mustered."

In chapter 7 he also mentions the strength of the defenders in the words of Gamling the Old to Éomer and Théoden: "'Maybe, we have a thousand to fight on foot', said Gamling, an old man, the leader of those that watched the Dike." --Fogeltje 11:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but I was referring to numbers in The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare, [2] a book purportedly detailing these topics, part of the film trilogy's merchandise. Much, if not most of it is invented by the writer and he mixes Tolkien's details with original details without distinction. To paraphrase Mr. T, I pity the fool who'd think it's true for the books! :P Useful quotes, though. Uthanc 22:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As for the orc numbers, Gandalf states (when Pippen is relating what happened at Isengard to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) that he had "about 10,000 orcs to deal with" to Treebeard. - Shanath18

Fair use rationale for Image:Helmsdeep-siege.jpg[edit]

Image:Helmsdeep-siege.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Helmsdeep-siege.jpg[edit]

Image:Helmsdeep-siege.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Custom maps[edit]

Several custom StarCraft maps have been created that are based on the battle, usually as depicted in the live-action film, and have become one of the more popular types of custom maps. The most popular versions include, in order of their release: Haldir version, Zergling version, and Annatar version. Others versions include NGM, Sarm, Genocide, and Poody. The names of map versions typically refer to their creators.

While the different versions vary widely in layout and play details, all involve the Uruk-hai army attacking the armies of Rohan and Lórien, following the story told by the Peter Jackson film. A timer, usually ranging from thirty to forty-five minutes or more, is always present to count down to the arrival of Gandalf and the Riders of Rohan, along with Éomer/Erkenbrand, depending on the version. Most contain one or more locations where hero units can recover lost hit points and upgrade attack/defence. Aragorn, Théoden, Legolas, Gimli, and Haldir are always present (unless there is no player to play their role or the role of their associated army). While heroes are significantly superior to standard infantry, they are not invincible. In most versions, the game ends either when Théoden or the civilians of Rohan are killed, or when both Uruk-hai commanders are killed.

Many custom-made scenarios have also been seen in the Age of Empires II: The Conquerors Expansion. Usually, a large cliffed area has a stretch of Stone Wall across the deep end of it, essentially creating Helm's Deep, or the Hornburg. Longbowmen or Robin Hood are placed behind the walls to symbolize Elven Archers and are under the control of the Player controlling the walls, or a separate Elf player. The Rohirrim player starts with a number of sword-bearing infantry. Another player (usually red) is given a large number of varied starting units outside the walls, who will begin attacking automatically.

A timed trigger then activates, sending a Petard to a point in the "Deeping Wall" where it detonates, allowing the controller of Saruman's forces entrance. The game will end when the Rohirrim player destroys all of the Uruk player's forces, or their Castle is destroyed.
Another trigger usually activates after a certain number of kills is accumulated, or the Rohirrim player's gate is destroyed, sending a number of cavalry from across the map. This symbolizes Gandalf and Eomer's charge from Jackson's film.
The Men and Elves players are given heroes (Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Haldir, Theoden) equipped with attack and hitpoint bonuses, and renamed from their original names.
Typically:
William Wallace--> Aragorn
Robin Hood--> Legolas
Erik the Red--> Gimli
Kibatake--> Haldir
Attila the Hun--> Theoden
On rare occasions a Saruman unit is given to the Uruk player (usually a Skirmisher or Eagle Warrior to show Saruman's staff).

I think we don't need to go in so much detail. Uthanc 00:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

removal[edit]

I removed a lot of excess - a plot synopsis is good - but it should be brief and not go into such great detail.87.102.36.162 00:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Urak hai helms dep.jpg[edit]

Image:Urak hai helms dep.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 23:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Elvesurukhaicharge.jpg[edit]

Image:Elvesurukhaicharge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 02:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Deepingwallbreached.jpg[edit]

Image:Deepingwallbreached.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 13:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers[edit]

Why aren't the numbers recorded? They were here a few months ago and in any other LOTR battle. Who got rid of them? More to the point why? LOTRrules (talk) 13:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]