Talk:Beer

Beer Definition

It would be proper to start the article with a definition of beer. Legal definitions vary, so it makes sense to go with a technical/practical definition. A surprising number of books on beer and brewing give no definition at all. Many give definitions that boil down to what I like is beer and what I don't like is not true beer. Others are strictly Eurocentric.

There are three major systems for producing an alcoholic beverage. 1. Ferment (with yeast) an source of sugar, like fruit, honey, or sap. Products of this process include wine as such, cider, mead, perry, palm wine, tiswin (from cactus), and the like. These should be defined a variations of wine. 2. Convert starch to sugar, then ferment the sugar. This includes European-style beer as well as sake, chicha, products made from manioc etc. These are variations of beer. 3. Products whose essential character is determined by a distillation process of one of the previous processes. This would include whiskey, vodka, rum, etc. We could define these as hard liquor, but there may be a better term.

There are, of course some grey areas. We need to allow some fortification of wine or beer and still have it remain wine or beer. Nobody wants to classify eisbier or sherry as hard liquor (except maybe taxing authorities).

This leads to my proposed definition of beer, which does follow the cited source and many others.

Beer can be broadly defined as a fermented beverage made from a source of starch without distillation. Beverages such as sake, huangjiu, and cheongiu that are made from rice, chicha, made from maize (USA: corn), and cauim and masato that are made from manioc (cassava) are properly considered forms of beer .

In a previous post, I mistakenly wrote "without fermentation" rather than "without distillation"

If there is no cogent objection, I'd like to start the article with this definition of beer. Dr Thermo (talk) 05:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Made indicated change. Also added a couple of book cites Dr Thermo (talk) 23:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-European Beer

The beer styles listed are essentially European/British. Perhaps coverage should be expanded to Oriental, African, Central and South American, and American Indian forms of beer. Maybe there should be less detail on the Euro beers in the main article to make room for the much more diverse styles of the rest of the world. The point is that the difference between mild ale and brown ale is trivial compared to the difference between European beer and, say, African Chibuku. There must be some editors with relevant expertise. Dr Thermo (talk) 04:25, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Some Factual Issues

History: The fermented beverage at made in China in 7000 BC contained fruit and rice. It may have been more of a wine than a beer. In any case, it is clearly incorrect to say that that it was not prepared by an amylolytic process, but by malting or mastication. Both of these are amylolytic processes, that is, they convert starch to sugar.
Made indicated correction. The cited article used the term amylolytic fermentation to refer to the use of koji mold. Dr Thermo (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

"As almost any substance containing carbohydrates, mainly sugars or starch, can naturally undergo fermentation..." This is clearly incorrect. There is plenty of carbohydrate that is not starch or sugar, like cellulose. Only a few simple sugars can undergo alcoholic fermentation. Starches have to be broken down into sugars before they will ferment. Cellulose can be broken into fermentable sugar, but it is difficult and never undertaken to produce an alcoholic beverage.
Made indicated correction.Dr Thermo (talk) 22:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hops. The first historical mention of the use of hops in beer was in the Statutes of Adalhard of Corbie, also known as Adalhard the Elder. He was abbot of the Monastery of St Peter and St Stephen at Corbie in northern France: Nelson, The Barbarian's Beverage pp 107-109. Not Corvey in Westphalia (Adalhard is credited with founding that monastery).
Made indicated clarification. Dr Thermo (talk) 22:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ingredients: Agave is not a starch source for beer, it gives a sweet sap from which wine is made. Dr Thermo (talk) 02:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC) Removed mention of agave. Also removed reference to Jackson's article http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000120.html. This article is good stuff, but it makes no mention of starch. Pulque, which is the beverage made from agave sap is more akin to wine than beer. The article on it is pretty detailed. Dr Thermo (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Factual Issues First Paragraph

"It is produced by the brewing and fermentation of sugars, mainly derived from malted cereal grains, most commonly malted barley and malted wheat. Sugars derived from maize (corn) and rice are widely used adjuncts because of their lower cost." Brewing sugars? It would be better to say: "It is produced by the saccharification of starch and fermentation of the resulting sugar. The starch and saccharification enzymes are often derived from malted cereal grains, most commonly malted barley and malted wheat. Unmalted maize (US: corn) and rice are widely used adjuncts to lighten the flavor and because of their lower cost. The preparation of beer is called brewing."
Let me know what you think.Dr Thermo (talk) 02:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Done Dr Thermo (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the first version was correct and the second version incorrect. Beer is frequently made with sugars included in the wort that are not completely derived from the saccharinification of starch, eg candi sugar, and has been for more than 150 years, at least; there are whole styles of beer that rely on brewing sugars not completely derived from grains, eg many Belgian beers and English barley wines; and there are many types of brewing sugars on sale to commercial brewers that are not derived from grain. Please revert. Zythophile (talk) 06:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

What other sugars in barley wines? The sugars present in lambics from fruits are consequential but not vital to the style. Gueuze has no extra sugars necessary although some commercial brewers add it.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 17:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

No. 1 invert sugar is not unusual in Barley Wine. If it's dark in colour, then possibly No. 3 invert.Patto1ro (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Third most popular

Is beer really the third most popular beverage? It's ahead of coffee - and wine? A lot of women don't like beer, it's a fairly male-dominated drink, so that's half the population wiped out already. Or perhaps it's because men drink so much of it that it outweighs the others? I would have considered cola and lemonade as well, but perhaps they're more children-orientated.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 01:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)