Talk:Beit She'an

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Former good article Beit She'an was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Death camps[edit]

Is there any credence to the claims that Skythopolis housed death camps in the 4th century AD? I'm referring to the Christian genocides of the Hellenistic people around that time. Vlasis Rassias wrote a book called "DEMOLISH THEM.." ISBN 960-7748-20-4 which has a timetable that mentions the supposedly notorious death camps of Skythopolis. DukeTwicep (talk) 16:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC) DukeTwicep (talk) 16:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Not as modern people would view it, but he does have some points. Skythopolis was the centre of the roaming courts of Constantius II, which tortured and executed those who had consulted Pagan oracles for political purposes. Although a political persecution and not religious, by its very nature, Pagans were the main victims because Christians were not likely to consult a Pagan oracle. The leading torturer/executioner was Paul 'The Chain' who was himself immediately executed in the Chalcedon Trials after Julian the Apostate came to the throne. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. What is the source for these trials? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.113.243.92 (talk) 13:03, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
It is Ammianus Marcellinus, Book 19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 03:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

NPOV[edit]

Like on some of the other entries where the Shahin travel book is used extensively, I request that especially for controversial statements, which I've mostly marked with {{cn}}, that the cited source be mentioned as well, for Shahin is not an expert or scholarly source in and of itself. Another problematic source is this Catholic New Times piece on Naim Ateek, that objectively states his father was threatened with being killed. It seems unlikely that this can be based on anything other than Ateek's testimony, especially considering that I couldn't really verify the publication's reliability except that the Catholic church, which was admittedly at odds with it, charged it with 'spreading error and misinformation'. Another question I have is on the use of Bisan over Beisan for the Arabic transliteration. While the Shahin book might use it, Beisan seems like the more accepted version, and a search on Google Scholar found "Bisan Palestine" 59 to "Beisan Palestine" 324. TewfikTalk 01:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

1) Bisan is used as extensively as Beisan. If you want to include both, I have no problem with that. Find a source and add it.
2) I attributed the Naim Ateek quote to him, making it his relation of the events that occurred. Someone who lived through someone is entitled to relay what happened. They are called eyewitnesses and their testimony is admissible in courts. Tiamut 19:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you haven't replied to the concerns I listed above, but considering the charges that you've levelled at me, I find it very curious that you decided to replace the sourced 1945 census with a 1934 census, the major difference of course being the much lower percentage of Jews, but considering that you initially presented the demographic information in to highlight some inequity in the allocation of the area to the Jews 1947 ("The 1947 UN Partition Plan nonetheless allocated Bisan to the proposed Jewish state"), the 1945 census seems far more salient. I also can't say I understand why you think it is more informative to include the public lands (which of course doesn't change the percentage), but I won't object to that. I am quite confused by this edit of yours ("the sources cited do not support the formulation as it constructed by tewfik, edited per sources"), considering that one source says From the beginning of the 20th century, Jews, mainly from Muslim countries, and another says the town was one of the centres of Arab terrorism, 1936–39 (the third refers to European Jews in the "newly occupied" city, ie after 1948). As for this edit about the origin of the name, Shahin is the author of a travel book, and not an expert on the ancient Near East. I highly doubt that this is her original research, but if it is, then it is highly dubious. That point holds for several other {{cn}}s that I added, as I explained above. Regarding your edit about Plan Dalet, considering that the source is Walid Khalidi, who has a unique take on that event, I will attribute the view to him. TewfikTalk 03:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You reverted my additions of new information once again. I reviewed the sources you provided and your formulation was incredibly misleading. I am restoring my edits once again. Please add the information you feel is supported by the sources to what I am restoring so that I can review it in situ alongside considerable additions I have already made. Thanks. Tiamut 19:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Considering I've quoted my sources above, I can't imagine what you find misleading about them, but you've essentially ignored everything I said and reverted with a minor change regarding the railway, which is not an issue of contention. TewfikTalk 20:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

Consensus was reached a while ago at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) that Bet X (house of X) articles should be moved to Beit X. I ask admins to move this article please. Also objections should be posted here, if you missed the other discussion. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Support --Shuki 21:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support TewfikTalk 17:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from Bet She'an to Beit She'an as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 20:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Nomination[edit]

Tewfik, I'm glad that you have nominated Beit She'an for GA and believe that it is definitely one of the better articles on Israeli towns. There are still a few issues though which I would like to resolve, like infrastructure, economy (the income section is statistics-only, plus what kind of name is Income for a section?), sister cities, etc. The lead could also be better. I will start a small expansion, but don't really know enough about Beit She'an to significantly improve the article. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Another issue is the neutrality of the article, which suffers greatly because of undue weight IMO. The alleged wrong treatment of Arabs by Jews in Beit She'an in the history section (under '20th century') has a whole 3 fairly long paragraphs, while the rest of the 20th century history of the city is practically untouched. I'm sure we can do better. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I faced a lot of flak the last time I tried that, so I'll let you have a go if you like while I research the noncontroversial aspects. TewfikTalk 01:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything that can be done as long as there isn't a significant amount of information on the history of Beit She'an other than 1948. If you can provide such information, we will probably be able to balance this article. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor means to find this information myself. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review[edit]

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): There were a variety of minor issues. Instead of giving you a list, I've just fixed them. b (MoS): PASS
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): PASS, but please fix the one or two missing citations. At this level, it is not necessary to be perfect. The references are generally good. b (citations to reliable sources): PASS c (OR): PASS
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): PASS, but try to expand the economy section. b (focused): PASS
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): PASS b (all significant views): PASS, I am glad that editors have been able to work out their differences.
  5. It is stable.
    PASS
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): PASS, excellent use of properly licensed images and figures b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): NOT APPLICABLE c (non-free images have fair use rationales): NOT APPLICABLE
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail: PASS

Jehochman Hablar 09:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold[edit]

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.

  • The lead does not appear to adequately summarize the article.
  • The infrastructure and education sections are currently too short to warrant their own sections.
  • Articles shouldn't contain miscellany sections.
  • The article needs to also discuss the local government, climate and culture, such as sports teams and local media.
  • These statements need inline citations:
    • "Its name is believed to derive from the early Canaanite "house of tranquility"."
    • "Crusaders established a short-lived fiefdom and fortress called Belvoir (Beauvoir) south of the ruined city, though they were ejected in 1263."
    • "The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. They discovered many interesting relics from the Egyptian period, most of which are preserved in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem and some in the University of Pennsylvania Museum in Philadelphia, United States. Excavations at the site are ongoing and reveal no less than 18 successive ancient towns. Ancient Beit She'an is one of the most impressive Roman and Byzantine sites in Israel, but attracts relatively few tourists due to its location slightly off the main tourist routes."
    • "In 1999, Beit She'an was incorporated as a municipality and the city lies in the middle of the territory of the Beit She'an Valley Regional Council."
    • "According to population surveys conducted in British Mandate Palestine, Beisan consisted of 5,080 Muslim Arabs out of a population of 5,540 (92% of the population), with the remainder being listed as Christians."

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 13:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I've had to delist the article as a week has passed and there's still quite a lot to fix. Epbr123 10:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The lead does not appear to adequately summarize the article.
  • The infrastructure and education sections are currently too short to warrant their own sections.
  • Articles shouldn't contain miscellany sections.
  • The article needs to also discuss the local government, climate and culture, such as sports teams.
  • These statements need inline citations:
    • "Its name is believed to derive from the early Canaanite "house of tranquility".
    • "Crusaders established a short-lived fiefdom and fortress called Belvoir (Beauvoir) south of the ruined city, though they were ejected in 1263." Date was wrong. References, a good thing.
    • "The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. They discovered many interesting relics from the Egyptian period, most of which are preserved in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem and some in the University of Pennsylvania Museum in Philadelphia, United States. Excavations at the site are ongoing and reveal no less than 18 successive ancient towns. Ancient Beit She'an is one of the most impressive Roman and Byzantine sites in Israel, but attracts relatively few tourists due to its location slightly off the main tourist routes." Note: I believe the following source has this information, but it needs to be verified: Foerster, Gideon. “Beth-Shean: Tel Beth-Shean and the Northern Cemetery.” The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land. 1993 ed.
    • "In 1999, Beit She'an was incorporated as a municipality and the city lies in the middle of the territory of the Beit She'an Valley Regional Council."
    • "According to population surveys conducted in British Mandate Palestine, Beisan consisted of 5,080 Muslim Arabs out of a population of 5,540 (92% of the population), with the remainder being listed as Christians."

The above box is for tracking progress. Please strike items when fixed. - Jehochman Talk 13:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sister City to Cleveland, Ohio[edit]

Should be added.

Thanks,

DarkestMoonlight (talk) 17:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible epicenter of earthquakes[edit]

Possibly interesting fact for inclusion in the article.

The scenario for which government institutions are expected to be prepared presupposes a quake scoring 7.5 on the Richter scale with an epicenter in the Beit She'an valley.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1077046.html

Good LuckGeo8rge (talk) 04:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Springs/Spa[edit]

Surprisingly, this article makes no reference to the springs of Bet SheanKvitlach (talk) 20:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

So, I have now done so (yesterday) Kvitlach Kvitlach (talk) 21:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

House of Tranquillity[edit]

The note to Shahin's book concerning the putative meaning of "Bet Shean" as "House of Tranquillity" (sic) should give way, in my opinion, to Rowe (1930: 1 note 5), where he cites C.Ritter (Berlin 1850), who raises that possibility (though without reference to Canaanite language).
Rowe's own conjecture connects the name with a Mesopotamian serpent deity called שחנ (shakhan). He further points that in reverse direction these letter form נחש (serpent) in Hebrew.
I'm not quite sure how to bring all this into the article, so I'm putting it here for now. Ory Amtiay - History @ Haifa University (talk) 07:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

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