Talk:Ben-Hur (1959 film)

FilmsWikiProject

Does anyone have a citation for the "largest film set ever" statement? I have seen plenty of conflicting reports over this claim. Shipguy 04:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

fullurl and other magic variables

* {{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}
* {{FULLPAGENAMEE}}
* {{PAGENAMEE}}
* {{localurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}

* Please never use:
: {{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}}}
: {{fullurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}
: {{localurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}}}
: {{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}

generates:‎

• //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)
• Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)
• Ben-Hur_(1959_film)
• /wiki/Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)

• Please never use:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)

/wiki/Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)

/wiki/Talk:Ben-Hur_(1959_film)

comments

• It seems that {{FULLPAGENAMEE}} and {{PAGENAMEE}} render differently. Best regards Gangleri · Th · T 21:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Fictional island? It's called a spina

I corrected and softened the language regarding the 'island,' since the spina is well-known as a feature of most circi.--TjoeC (talk) 17:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

33 million today

I removed the "33 million today" bit because what's "today" mean in an undated encyclopedia? And where was this information from.. a 10 year old source maybe? It's at best meaningless without context, at worst misleading. A cited source and date for this trivia would make it worthwhile. -- Stbalbach 14:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't use IMDB trivia page as a reliable source

This page had a few citations to the Internet Movie Database's trivia page as a source for information. However, these pages are not trustworthy: they are made the same way as Wikipedia, through contributions by anon users, and are often inaccurate and half-remembered, or even untrue. DVD commentaries, documentaries and books are much better sources. Cop 633 18:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

• In the same light, much of the text here has been lifted directly from the IMDB page on Ben-Hur.97.81.214.211 (talk) 01:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Hortator

Currently the article says of the word hortator, "(Curiously, the word hortatator, although known to everyone who has seen this movie, and actually defined in the eponymous book, does not appear in either the American Heritage Dictionary or the Random House Dictionary." It may be in the Oxford English Dictionary.""

It is sort of in the OED. It is not in my fourth edition (1993) Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, although it is possible that it was included in the fifth, I suppose. It is in the electronic OED, where the only reference given is to the book of Ben Hur. I can't think how to reword the article at the moment. The OED definition is not "drum-banger" or "speed-setter" or anything you might guess from the film, btw, but "one who exhorts". Skimming over the chapter "At the oar", the definition seems to be "chief of the rowers".

Telsa (talk) 09:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hortator

If you check a Latin dictionary, you'll find that the word hortator means inciter; encourager, exhorter; urger which is completely in keeping as a descriptive title for the person who gives the time for rowers. The Latin stem is: hortator, hortatoris N (3rd) M.

See the online Latin lexicon Words by William Whitaker URL is http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe?Hortator

4.153.248.63 16:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)Lucia

Ben-Hur and Messala... Lovers?

I've seen Ben-Hur several times. It's quite a good film -- if you can ignore Charlton Heston's wretchedly stiff performance. It's hard to understand how anyone as self-deprecatory as Heston can be such a bad actor.

Anyhow, the story given here that Gore Vidal posited an earlier affair to motivate Messala's hatred of Ben-Hur is not only unlikely (given the Romans' discomfort with homosexual behavior, and the Jews' detestation of it), but psychologically implausible. As strictly heterosexual men can and do have intense emotional relationships with each other, it's perfectly natural for Messala to be upset -- even outraged to the point of hatred -- when his close childhood friend refuses to do as he asks. There's no need for sex.

And this story is almost certainly untrue -- we have Gore Vidal's word on the matter! In a interview in the supplementary material for the multi-disk edition of Ben Hur he says that the story is a misrepresentation -- that what he really suggested was that Stephen Boyd play the part as if Ben-Hur and Messala were lovers or spouses who'd had a falling out. This is hardly the same thing as them actually having been sexual lovers.

As for whether this is visible in the film... I don't see it, and I'm looking for it! Stephen Boyd was an actor of minimal talent; I doubt he had the skill to convey anything so subtle.

Regardless, someone should review the DVD interview and update the material accordingly. I don't have the time, and I don't really like to make such substantial changes to someone else's work.

WilliamSommerwerck 17:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Vidal's opinion can be kept. However, I advise to people to stop commenting on each other's opinions, per WP:TALK. Alientraveller (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Why does it seem like every single article that is even remotely related to stories in the Bible (especially Christ) has a section on a possible homosexual subtext? Is this really necessary since no sources are cited? 68.205.145.219 (talk) 20:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It does cite sources: the book and film of The Celluloid Closet. And I recall the DVD liner notes on CC provides most of this stuff verbatim; unfortunately I don't have a copy on me. As to all Christ articles having stuff about gay subtexts, I think you're exaggerating. Cop 663 (talk) 00:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There is as of this moment no mention of the homosexual theory at all?? In this case, I AM going to comment on other people's opinions. Because William S. here seems opinionated. Saying "well this and this is clearly not so, in fact everyone knows it is such and such" doesn't make it a fact. It all sounds like a bunch made up arguments to me, collected to enforce a personal opinion. Wether one likes it or not, the story about the homosexual meaning is there, coming from someone who could have known. Personally it doesn't really bother me what people think they can discover in a movie made 50 years ago. We can't dismis the story as if it never happened. Anyway, there is no way to deny or verify it. But it is impossible to deny the rumour exists. The controversy is real, so this story should be mentioned, in a neutral way. Spiny Norman (talk) 20:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The Crucifixion Scene

210.213.140.244 (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)I would like to know why the cross used for Ben-Hur's passion scene was shaped like capital T, instead of the usual Latin cross (used commonly for King of Kings, Passion of the Christ, etc).

Jesus's Face

The "Casting" paragrpah states (last line) "Out of respect, and consistent with Lew Wallace's stated preference, the face of Jesus is never shown. He was played by opera singer Claude Heater, who received no credit for his only film role."
However, Lew Wallace (the author) died in 1905 according to his Wiki bio. How or why would Wallace stipulate that Jesus's face not be shown, given that Wallace died some time before the proliferation of movies? Was he talking about plays? And what is the source for his having stated this? Engr105th (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Answer: Lew Wallace was a conservative Christian who strongly believed that showing Jesus' face in the movie would violate the 2nd Commandment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.159.182 (talk) 15:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lew Wallace died in 1905...even assuming he worked until his death, it seems unlikely he'd have seen the advent of the widely distributed film industry as we know it. He was a politician in the mid-West USA..The history of film seems to indicate 'films' were mostly under development in France in the late 1890s... would Wallace really have had the knowledge or film experience to see that Ben Hur as a movie might show Jesus's face and thereby object to it? (just asking; food for thought). Something doesn't jibe here... If he did make such a condition, there ought to be documentation of it before its included in Wikipedia. Engr105th (talk) 07:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

He did not want to have an actor portray Christ in a play on stage - he allowed a stage adaptation when a director suggested using light to indicate Christ. This preference was known, and carried forward in making the film. (It's documented in the article on the book.) Parkwells (talk) 03:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Why don't we have

Judah Ben-Hur as article on wikipedia (I didn't know where to put it). I was surprised the character wasnt mentioned here and underlined (like a hyperlink) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.249.55 (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency with Judah vs Judah Ben-Hur vs Ben-Hur

There is an inconsistency, at least in the plot section, as to how the main character is referred to. Sometimes it is written Judah, and sometimes Ben-Hur. This makes it difficult to read. It would be much better to just stick to a single reference or write the whole name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.61.208 (talk) 03:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Allmovie

• Ben-Hur (1959) at AllRovi ... plot synopsis, review, cast, production credits, awards

Reference available for citing in the article body. Erik (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Blu-ray release

Any info on this? Amazon still invites you to "Sign up to be notified when this item becomes available" after almost 2 years (http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray-Charlton-Heston/dp/B0013MYB9K/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1263591970&sr=8-9). Other sources such as www.Blu-ray.com don't give more details other: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/756/. Can anybody find a more up-to-date source stating when it will be released? I know this is not supposed to be a forum, but I can't believed MGM missed the 50th anniversary of such a title... 81.96.125.246 (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Love, not mere attraction

The scene between Esther and Judah is meant to depict their realisation that they are in love with each other, not simply attracted to each other. The tenderness shown between them in the seen clearly demonstrates more than mere attraction, and it is the basis for the growth of their relationship throughout the film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.212.57 (talk) 06:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Sinden quote

There is a quote from Donald Sinden's memoirs congratulating Charlton Heston on the chariot race. It's a direct quote from the book. While a source was given, no page number was given. I tried to find this book in Google Books, but it is not online. If this were a fact but not a quote, I think we could leave it in and wait until someone added a page number. But since this is a direct quotation, I think it needs to come out of the article until a page number can be found. I hope someone can do that! (I think the quote should also be moved from where it was added to the paragraph that talks about Heston training for the chariot race. It belongs there, rather than hanging out bare where it was.) - Tim1965 (talk) 17:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ben-Hur (1959 film)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ankitbhatt (talk · contribs) 15:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

An iconic Hollywood film, I was wondering when this would get a GA nomination. Sadly, one look at this article is giving me strong quick-fail vibes. Some broad problems (and I am usually very nit-picky) are :-

• For an article this big, the lead is very small. Besides, its incomplete, missing details regarding principal photography, box office, reviews etc.

• The plot is big, certainly beyond any lenient norms for plot lengths.

• I can understand the amount of information regarding this film, but seriously? The script development section is gigantic; the size of it alone makes me afraid to read it.

• And that's hardly the worst. The chariot race sequence's length would make up half of any normal article. Same goes for the unwieldy Production design, Cinematography and editing - in short, practically everything.

• The article suffers from a lot of prose problems. Generally, the text is confusing, lengthy, stuffed and elaborately written so much so that reading it all is fatiguing.

Such wide-range problems will be very difficult to rectify. I am not in any way saying that information should be cut from Wikipedia, but some sections need to be moved out to separate daugther articles. Other than that, thorough copy-edits and a lot of referencing improvement is needed. While I feel a withdrawal is the best option, I'll AGF and see how much improvement can be made in a week. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 15:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Some observations:

1. I echo Ankitbhatt's sentiments in regards to the lede; the lede is not an introduction to the article, it is an abstract i.e. it should summarise the article, but it skirts production and completely omits Reception.
2. As for the plot length, the word count stands at 798 words, and WP:FILMPLOT recommends 400–700 words; if it could be brought within those limits that would be great, but those guidelines are written in respect to a film of typical length i.e. a couple of hours. This film is nearly twice as long so in view of that I think we can cut a bit of slack since it is only 100 words over the limit (by comparison Titanic (1997 film) is a similar length and the plot summary stands at 850 words).
3. I don't really see much point to the cast list. I know many film articles have them but in this case it is just repeating the parenthesised names in the plot summary. It's redundant. The closest FA example to this article is Witchfinder General (film) which offers the actors names in the plot summary and has a dedicated 'casting' section, similar to this article, but omits a cast list.
4. I don't think the script development section should be trimmed by much, if at all; the writing process seems like it was pretty integral to the entire direction of the film. I found it absorbing rather exhausting.
5. The Differences between novel and film needs to go too since it does not comply with MOS:FILM#Adaptation_from_source_material.
6. I have mixed feelings about the Chariot Race section. It could be transported to a sub-article since it is pretty self-contained, but even then it would still only bring the article down to about 100k, and pretty much isolate the aspect the film is most famous for. I think a better approach may be to break this section and the scrip development section into sub-headings, and then it will be in a more digestible form for readers.
7. There is also some inconsistent date formatting in the references section that needs to be addressed. Betty Logan (talk) 22:10, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello Betty! I thought you had left Wikipedia, but anyways, glad you're here :) By splitting, I had not referred to completely removing the sections. As per WP:FORK, the original article must summarize the split parts in a thorough manner. Under the present circumstances, summarizing would be the best option but I don't know if it will be entirely possible. In addition, the Script development section is confusing or abrupt in places, which needs work. Same goes for the other sections as well. I'm sure we could all come to a compromise, so I would first suggest a complete copy-edit and re-writing so as to make the information more condensed. After that, we could take a call on splitting. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 04:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I still check in regularly; I can't quit permanently or the articles I've developed will just go to the wall, but I don't develop articles anymore. I still do a bit of assessing for the Film Project when I'm bored. I don't think 100k is an unreasonable size for an article about such a classic film, I think the problems can be addressed through some structural changes, so I will see if I can do anything later. I won't be overhauling the article though but I honestly don't think it needs it. We'll see what I can do anyway. Betty Logan (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Quite the contrary, this film deserves much more than just 100k, seeing its stature and fame (a much less acclaimed film on which I worked upon is 142k). The problem lies in the readability, which is poor, and the prose, which is definitely not up to the mark. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 16:40, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you should probably close the review. It has fantastic coverage and is well sourced, but there are so many other aspects that need to be addressed. I wouldn't even say it qualifies as B class at the moment. I've made a few changes to the structure, but we need to look at that more closely and it needs a good copy-edit too. I don't think it can be sorted out in a week, so I think it should be made ship shape and then re-submitted. Betty Logan (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

DeMille DeMille

Did Wyler really wish to "out DeMille DeMille"? --Regression Tester (talk) 21:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Influence of Chariot Race

Surely the remark attributed to Kevin Brownlow referred to the 1926 version? Brownlow's book is about the Silent Era.Rozsaphile1 (talk) 23:28, 25 November 2012 (UTC)