Talk:Berber languages

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Former good article Berber languages was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Tamazighth?[edit]

I think that "THamazighth" should be mentioned as another translation for "Berber language" as in many regions no words start with "T". In addition, neither the terms "Berber" nor "Tamazighth" is used to describe the language people speak in many regions. Only the "dialect" name is used (as Thakbaylith in Kabilya and Thashawith for the Shawi Language in Aures Algeria) Josef.b

Pronunciation[edit]

This would be a good place to furnish the pronunciation of "Tamazight". Kortoso (talk) 22:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Added to Central Atlas. Copy here if you like. — kwami (talk) 10:10, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Removed there and here as well. See discussion there. - Thnidu (talk) 05:20, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

berber[edit]

The Arabic word must surely be from the Greek 'barbaros', generally agreed to be an onomatopoeic term indicating people who make unintelligible sounds. A discussion of the Greek term in antiquity may be found in Strabo Geography Bk 14,2,28 188.97.114.49 (talk) 12:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

You need a reliable source for that conclusion. --Taivo (talk) 12:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
The OED says of Barbary, which the etymology section of Berber refers to,
I. [the common noun] a. OF. barbarie, ad. L. barbaria, barbariēs, ‘land of barbarians, barbarism,’ f. barbar-us barbarous. In II. [the proper name] ult f. Arab. Barbar, Berber, applied by the Arab geographers from ancient times to the natives of N. Africa, west and south of Egypt. According to some native lexicographers, of native origin, f. Arab. barbara ‘to talk noisily and confusedly’ (which is not derived from Gr. βάρβαρος); according to others, a foreign word, African, Egyptian, or perh. from Greek. The actual relations (if any) of the Arabic and Gr. words cannot be settled; but in European langs. Barbaria, Barbarie, Barbary, have from the first been treated as identical with L. barbaria, Byzantine Gr. βαρβαρία land of barbarians: see sense 1.
I don't know what's been concluded in the century since that was written, unless perhaps this entry has been updated. — kwami (talk) 21:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
It hasn't been. - Thnidu (talk) 05:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

sub-explanation sought[edit]

What is a sub-language? —Tamfang (talk) 23:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

sub– was added on April 18 by 78.155.227.221 without explanation. I'll remove it. —Tamfang (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

what's Arabic for 'barbaric'?[edit]

Unlike Arabic, European languages distinguish between the words "Berber" and "barbaric".

Does Arabic really use the same word for both? —Tamfang (talk) 07:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Arabic uses the same word to describe an Amazigh (Berber) and a Barbarian, i.e. "بربري" transliterated as "barbari".
E3 (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed move[edit]

In deference to the controversy over whether Berber is a WP:NPOV term, considering its connotations in being associated with "barbarian" as well as the emergence of a stronger Amazigh identity (especially during the Arab Spring, with the language now being official in Morocco and used by organs of the partially recognized National Transitional Council in Libya), I suggest this article be moved to either Tamazight or Amazigh languages (a WP:COMMON term used by Al Jazeera, Foreign Policy, Deutsche Welle, BBC News, and others). Support for this position comes from Noah Feldman, who notes that the "preferred term today is Amazigh" for the so-called Berber people, and comments I've seen here and elsewhere on Wikipedia seem to bear this out. So, I thought I would bring this name change (in keeping with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality) proposal up for discussion. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia article names are driven by the dictates of WP:COMMONNAME. "Berber" is by a huge margin the most common name of this language group in English. No other name is even close. Thus, Wikipedia's policies dictate that this article remain right here at "Berber" where it is. English speakers will be looking for "Berber", so that is where this article should stay. --Taivo (talk) 21:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. In addition, 'Tamazight' is also used to refer to the Central Atlas Tamazight language, and this could potentially cause a lot of confusion. Mo-Al (talk) 23:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Agree with Kudzu1, Ethnologue uses Amazigh Languages, media and government of Morocco & Algeria do the same. Even EB uses Amazigh. [1]. I'm sure that Berber is more popular All-time. But if you do a search restricted to the last two decade I bet Amazigh is more common and WP recommends using current rather than older names.
Anyway this title will ultimately change, since it is pejorative in origin. Even what is called the "Maghreb" today was called "Barbary coast" for a long long time.
Tachfin (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Ethnologue does not use "Amazigh", it uses Berber. Within linguistic circles, "Berber" is prohibitively the most common English usage. None of the other terms are even close to Berber as the common name of this language group. I oppose any move as it would violate WP:COMMONNAME. EB is only one source, what do all the other encyclopedias use? So far, the evidence that either of you have presented for moving this article is paper thin. No solid evidence, no move. --Taivo (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
You're right about Ethnologue, I got mixed up and spoke too quickly. We're only discussing the possibility of a move and of course it wouldn't be done without hardcore argumentation and evidence.
Regards, Tachfin (talk) 21:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I personally approve of renaming the article to Tamazight languages, the term Berber can be confusing and very derogatory. Indeed the term "Berber" has been more popular but so was another derogatory word used for Americans of African ancestry. Sincere apologies for the example but it seems rather necessary to point it out. Moreover as the term "Barbarian" and "Berber" are very close in Arabic and other languages and may still be used as derogatory terms to describe North Africans.
Regards
E3 (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

"Tamazight" in Neo-Tifinagh[edit]

The last edit, by User:Tachfin, removed the graphic showing the name "Tamazight" written in Roman and Neo-Tifinagh. That's fine, since the Neo-Tifinagh name is in the infobox... if the user has a font that supports it. The Tifinagh article has the appropriate flag --

This article contains Tifinagh text. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols instead of Tifinagh letters.

-- but this article doesn't.

I don't know the policy for using such flags, but since the word ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ ("Tamazight") is the only Tifinagh text in the article, I don't feel that it's necessary and I'm not adding it. However, since users who haven't had any experience with Tamazight are not likely to have the IRCAM font (or any other that may support this script), I'm adding back the Tifinagh half of the graphic. --Thnidu (talk) 19:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello,
The article didn't contain that PNG before, an IP added it and it screwed the layout. I think Tifinagh scripts are now included in Firefox/Windows by default, which wasn't the case a few years back. My computer is less than 1 year old and I've never installed IRCAM font in it. But Tifinagh script has always showed correctly as any other script. I don't think the PNG is needed anymore, especially that it doesn't fit with the layout. Tachfin (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Ali Baba[edit]

Was Ali Baba from the Arabian Night a Berber? 86.176.190.64 (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

What about the verbal system?[edit]

Why is the noun system described while the verbal one isn't? I think it is more interesting and informative from the viewpoint of comparative Afroasiatic linguistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.191.241.225 (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ethnic Berber[edit]

Ethnic Berbers are considered to be the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries. What does the term ethnic berber mean? I suggest to replace this vague sentence by The bulk of the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries are considered to have Berber ancestors. Nahabedere (talk) 09:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

three plural forms?[edit]

I can't see a difference between the first group (it consists in changing the initial vowel of the noun, and adding a suffix -n) and the third group (it combines a change of vowels with the suffix -n). Where's the difference between argaz → irgazen and azur → izuran? --androl (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Standard Moroccan Tamazight[edit]

ISO now supports the incipient standard language. We have a stub needing expansion. — kwami (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Gaddafi[edit]

As areas of Libya south and west of Tripoli such as the Nafusa Mountains were liberated from the control of forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi in early summer 2011, [...] Couldn't find a more neutral formulation? The idea is the fact that Gaddafi's control was over, we don't need any opinion here about whether people became liberated, since it's not the topic and is a sensitive political issue. - 92.100.181.160 (talk) 17:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)