Talk:Bertran de Born

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bertran de Born article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

France Low‑importance

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Biography / European / French / Medieval / Crusades

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	European military history task force
	French military history task force
	Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500)
	Crusades task force

Biography: Musicians / Military

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Middle Ages: Crusades Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Crusades task force.

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Was Bertran de Bòrn really French?[edit]

Hi, I just wanted to make sure this region was under French rule when Bertran de Bòrn was born (or lived). If he were under English rule would that make him English? I mean what's for sure is that he was Occitan and that should be enough since the other possible nationalities would be somewhat biased in my opinion... Sincerely/Coralament, Capsot (talk) 17:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first line of the article says that he was from Limousin in France (it is in France, it's not in England!) and was an Occitan troubadour. Seems OK to me. Is there some problem later in the article? Quote it.

Questions about whether someone in the medieval past belonged to some modern ethnicity give endless fun to nationalists, but are not easy to answer reliably. All depends on definitions. I don't claim him as English, anyway! Andrew Dalby 20:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was Limougeot, not French and from Aquitaine, not France. The meaning of France in the 12th c. was only, what is today called Ile-de-France. It would be about the same to call Welsh people or Scottish people "English". Other thing : I added the Occitan form Autafòrt, what seems to me logical for somebody who wrote in Occitan language. Nortmannus (talk) 22:14, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cephalophore?[edit]

Why is Bertran de Born in the category "Cephalophores"? That category's page says it is for saints who are depicted carrying their own heads, usually because they were executed by beheading. Bertran de Born is not a saint and we don't even know how he died. I cannot find any mention in the article of him being depicted carrying his own head for any other reason.

I'm not an expert in this field and it's quite possible that I'm missing something, so I'm posting here in case anyone can explain. 98.194.6.70 (talk) 22:01, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Easy to explain ... Hadn't seen this category before, but the justification is visual, in Doré's illustration of Dante, in which Bertran, in Hell, is depicted carrying his own head. A cephalophore etymologically doesn't have to be a saint, so on the basis of Dante and Doré, two reliable sources, Bertran in the afterlife can be described as a cephalophore. The most helpful solution, from the point of view of cephalophore-counters, would be to remove the restriction "saint" from the definition on the category page. But there is room for doubt whether such a category is really useful :) Andrew Dalby 12:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]