Talk:Bethlem Royal Hospital

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Psychology (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject London (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Historic sites (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Historic sites, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of historic sites on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject National Health Service  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject National Health Service, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of National Health Service on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
 
WikiProject Hospitals (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hospitals, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hospitals on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

An inaccuracy?[edit]

I am reading a theatre play from 1622, the Changeling, and there is a place similar to Bedlam, very likely to have been taken up from the real one, and there is a passage mentioning "patients" as well as "daily visitants" who were looking at the madmen for fun. This would render the first dates of mentioning the former (18th century) and latter respectively (19th century) questionable. Malej 19:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Just a different possible inaccuracy. The first footnote link to a journal discussing the possible madness or insanity of Jesus, rather than the playwright or the quote the footnote is attached to. 92.234.30.143 (talk) 06:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Cite supports the Nathaniel Lee quote. But it's derived from Porter, so probably better to use that if it's to be retained. The paragraph as it is is confused. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Public visitations certainly had begun by early 17th century and possibly by late 16th century FiachraByrne (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Public visits almost certainly by 1590s. Should have some account of prevalence of Bethlem/Bedlam in Jacobean plays. Also really need to account for term Bedlam. FiachraByrne (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Removal of another two paragraphs - one sentence (quote) sourced[edit]

Excised the following:

The Hospital became famous and notorious for the brutal ill-treatment meted out to the mentally ill. In 1675 Bedlam moved to new buildings in Moorfields designed by Robert Hooke, outside the City boundary. The playwright Nathaniel Lee was incarcerated there for five years, reporting that: "They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me."[1]

The inmates were first called "patients" in 1700, and "curable" and "incurable" wards were opened in 1725-34.

  1. ^ Meggitt, J.J. (2007) The Madness of King Jesus: Why was Jesus Put to Death, but his Followers were not? Journal for the Study of the New Testament 29; 379 doi:10.1177/0142064X07078990

Paragraph 1: First sentence true but needs context and specification. Will add detail for this - mostly derived from Andrews Phd. Second sentence true but unsourced. Will re-add information and cite it properly. Nathaniel Lee quote correctly sourced (but derived from Porter - so might be better to cite him instead). Will add back in but somewhere where it makes sense. Paragraph is collection of non sequiturs as it stands (which might be my fault as I've edited some of the original article out due to repetitions as I've added content.

Paragraph 2: Unsourced. First statement incorrect. Second pretty much correct. Will add back in with sources at appropriate point in the article. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, and typical of your ignorance, the first statement is correct. You've confused the reference to "patients" by the Privy Council with the Hospital's own nomenclature. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Please assume AGF or I'll take you to ANI FiachraByrne (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
According to Andrews (1991 thesis) Bethlem itself first referred to inmates 'lunatickes' as patients in 1640s - makes sense with inauguration of medical regime in 1634. FiachraByrne (talk) 21:58, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Picking up books this week[edit]

  • Edward Geoffrey O'Donoghue, The Story of Bethlem Hospital from its Foundation in 1247 (London, 1914).
  • Charles Webster (ed), Health, Medicine and Mortality in the Sixteenth Century (Cambridge, 1979).
  • David Russell, Scenes from Bedlam: A History of Caring for the Mentally Disordered at Bethlem Royal Hospital and the Maudsley (London, c. 1997).
  • Jonathan Andrews et al., The History of Bethlem (London, 1997).
  • Patricia Allderidge, The Bethlem Royal Hospital: an Illustrated History (London, 1995).
  • Jonathan Barry and Collin Jones (eds), Medicine and Charity before the Welfare State (London, 1991).

FiachraByrne (talk) 02:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Only got the two key ones in the end. Andrews et al. and Allderidge chapter in Webster. FiachraByrne (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Tom O'Bedlams[edit]

Cut section:

In the early modern period it was widely believed that patients discharged from Bethlem Hospital were licensed to beg, though in 1675 the Governors denied this.[1] They were known as Abraham-men or Tom o' Bedlam. They usually wore a tin plate on their arm as a badge and were also known as Bedlamers, Bedlamites, or Bedlam Beggars. In William Shakespeare's King Lear, the Earl of Gloucester's son Edgar takes the role of a Bedlam Beggar in order to remain in England unnoticed after banishment. Whether any were ever licensed is uncertain. There were probably far more who claimed falsely to have been inmates than were ever admitted to the hospital.

FiachraByrne (talk) 00:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Bedlamites certainly existed but unclear if they had any but symbolic relationship to institution.FiachraByrne (talk) 22:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

St George's Fields[edit]

Cut unreferenced sentence:

The new building had a remarkable library as an annex which was well frequented. Although the sexes were separated, in the evenings, those capable of appreciating music could dance together in the great ballroom. In the chapel the sexes were separated by a curtain.

FiachraByrne (talk) 00:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Relevance of The Curtain inclusion[edit]

The distance between the original Bishopsgate site and the site of the Curtain is somewhat over a kilometer. You must have a rather strong arm to be able to throw a stone that distance! More to the point, is there any connection between the two, beyond the Shakespearean references above? Is it demonstrable, perhaps, that Robert Armin, whose house was close to Bedlam, had any relationship with the hospital? There was much else in the area too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.5.142.222 (talk) 21:33, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

The point about the distance of Bethlem from those theatres is a fair one and the wording could be changed. Also, the image caption is currently unsourced, although presumably Andrews et al. 1997 and Hattori 1995 could be used. However, the connection between those theatres and Bethlem is sourced insofar as their proximity to the asylum is offered as one of two possible explanations for the staging of Bethlem in theatrical productions from the late 16th century onwards. Following an admittedly cursory search I can't find any reference in the literature linking Armin to Bethlem. FiachraByrne (talk) 12:44, 27 November 2013 (UTC)