Talk:Biblical numerology

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Origin[edit]

Took baseline/inspiration from a user sandbox who may have copied it from a copyrighted source, so it definitely needed changing and footnoting before re-inserting. It is vastly changed from when it first appeared.

Having said that, this information has been known since it was written roughly 2000 years ago. So the sources all say about the same thing. In some cases (Revelation, for example), there isn't much to say unless the reader believes in the literal translation, which is fine, but not what this article documents. Student7 (talk) 19:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possible additional sources[edit]

Ian.thomson (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tagged for unreliable sources. It's pretty clear that there are much better sources available. Doug Weller talk 12:30, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

#40 is a Recurring Bible Theme[edit]

I added... The number Forty is a recurring Bible theme with it first appearing in Genesis 7:4, "For in seven days it will rain for forty days and forty nights". Moses did the #40 several times: he was 40-years-old when he was exiled from Egypt, he returned 40 years later to lead the Hebrews out of captivity, 40 days atop Mount Sinai, 40 years of the Hebrews wandering in the dessert, etc. Goliath challenged the Israelites for 40 days before David killed him and King David ruled for 40 years. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert for 40 days. 40 hours after Jesus was taken down from the Cross, he appeared outside the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea to Mary Magdalen. Jesus hung out in Jerusalem and Galilee for 40 days before leaving for ---. 73.85.202.197 (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What is meaning of 40. And what citation supports that meaning? Same with 13. Bile only Student7 (talk) 19:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of this article?[edit]

Requested move 22 December 2020[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. To the extent that this discussion addresses issues beyond the title issue, that discussion should be continued in an appropriate forum. BD2412 T 03:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical numerology → ?

This article is named "Biblical numerology" which seems to imply that the article's content should be limited to just the bible (and perhaps exegesis). But this seems like it could perhaps result in a slippery slope with regard to stuff only implicitly mentioned in the bible. Take the seven sacraments, for example. (It's listed as a bullet point under section "7".) As a Catholic, I would say that these are in fact "biblical". But I acknowledge that nowhere in the bible does it give a listing of the sacraments, or even say that there are exactly seven. The listing of seven (no more, no less) comes from extra-biblical tradition, not from the bible.

But then where do we draw the line? Take the Holy Triduum, for example. (It's listed under section "3".) The Holy Triduum is a liturgical celebration, not something found in the bible. (The events that it's modelled after are found in the bible, but the Triduum itself is not.) So should it be listed?

Then there is also the stuff about "ten fingers and ten toes", "twelve lunar months", etc. This might help to draw connections, but it's not the least bit "biblical".

I am not saying these things should be removed. I do think it's perfectly appropriate (especially the stuff concerning extrabiblical tradition and liturgy). But I am just wondering if maybe the article's name should be changed to "Christian numerology" or "Significance of numbers in Christianity"? I'm opening a name change request below. 2601:49:C301:D810:60D6:3777:B8C0:7F2D (talk) 15:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 13:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

From a quick glance, the WP:OR problems with this article may be so bad that the article needs to be deleted. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:16, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's fine or at least salvageable. Most of the interpretations do cite secondary/tertiary sources, while most of the examples have biblical citations (a primary source) which seems acceptable since they're only examples. 2601:49:C301:D810:9105:D90B:F35A:3D8A (talk) 13:31, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am in agreement with power~enwiki that this article has a lot of WP:OR. I don't think it is okay that the examples have primary sources -- that is OR. Even if the article should be kept, it should not be moved to Christian numerology, as the article itself says "this article is concerned with those uniquely affecting Judeo-Christian beliefs" so it should be Judeo-Christian numerology or Judeo-Christian biblical numerology.Theredproject (talk) 11:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article should split into Jewish numerology aka already existing article Significance of numbers in Judaism and and Christian numerology, given that there are only limited overlaps. (t · c) buidhe 23:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until a more definite proposal can be made for a sensible RM or split discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 07:26, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The question is bigger than the title. Is this really a topic? Numerology is a pseudoscience that can be applied to nearly anything. A google scholar search on "biblical numerology" indicates scholarly sources, but the current version is a WP:NOR problem. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: original research... As far as the interpretations go, most already have secondary sources cited. (Some could be better cited.) But I suppose all the biblical citations need to be removed, apart from the ones explicitly cited in secondary sources. 73.133.224.40 (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: buidhe's suggestion: I agree. Move all the Jewish interpretation to the Significance of numbers in Judaism page, and then rename this page to Christian numerology. (There's about as much overlap between Jewish and Christian numerology as there is between Christian and Pythagorean numerology!) 73.133.224.40 (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: numerology is a pseudoscience - It could be argued that no, it's not. But even if it were, the topic is still of interest to exegetes, art historians, artists, writers, commentators, etc. (Western society was Christian for much of its history, and numerology is more or less a kind of symbolism. The same way that symbolism in general is of interest.) 73.133.224.40 (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

heinzerling stored[edit]

Below I am storing some information which I do not believe is worth including in the page but I do not want to outright delete.

According to the two censuses taken in Numbers 1 and 26, there were approximately 600,000 adult men alone who left Egypt to Israel. These totals are given as the cumulative whole of the number of adult men in each of the twelve tribes of Israel. These values have widely been seen as literary and unreflective of historical reality. In addition, Heinzerling has pointed to "statistical peculiarities" in the census lists which shows that the number of adult men in each of the twelve tribes do not reflect real population statistics or random numbers but in fact carefully chosen literary values. For one, in the first census list, the tribe of Ephraim numbers 40,500 individuals. In the second census list, it is the tribe of Gad which numbers 40,500 individuals. In the first census list, the tribe of Naphtali numbers 53,400 individuals. In the second census list, it is the tribe of Asher which numbers 53,400 individuals. In addition, there appear to be numerical doublets across these numbers between the two census lists: 40500/60500 (Ephraim/Zebulun), 32200/22200 (Manasseh/Simeon), 62700/52700 (Dan/Manasseh), 54400/64400 (Issacher/Dan), 35400/45400 (Benjamin/Naphtali), 46500/76500 (Reuben/Judah).[1]

The number of adult men per tribe
First Census Count Second Census Count
1. Reuben (cf. 4) 46,500 1. Reuben 43,730
2. Simeon 59,300 2. Simeon 22,200
3. Gad 45,650 3. Gad 40,500
4. Judah 74,600 4. Judah 76,500
5. Issachar (cf. 10) 54,400 5. Issachar 64,300
6. Zebulun 57,400 6. Zebulun 60,500
7. Ephraim (cf. 3., 6.) 40,500 7. Ephraim 32,500
8. Manasseh (cf. 2) 32,200 8. Manasseh 52,700
9. Benjamin (cf. 12) 35,400 9. Benjamin 45,600
10. Dan (cf. 8) 62,700 10. Dan 64,400
11. Asher 41,500 11. Asher 53,400
12. Naphtali (cf. 11) 53,400 12. Naphtali 45,400

Heinzerling's theories are considered speculative and complicated by many scholars which therefore raises the question as to whether such complex usages of numbers were being made by the authors of the census texts.

Editshmedt (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Rudiger Heinzerling, "On the Interpretation of the Census Lists by C. J. Humphreys and G. E. Mendenhall", Vetus Testamentum (2000), pp. 250-252

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose merging Numerology and the Church Fathers into Biblical numerology. The former is fairly brief and discusses historical attitudes of the Catholic Church towards biblical numerology; I think it could be comfortably incorporated into the latter. — Moriwen (talk) 15:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That other article is in a very poor state. Most of it is either unsourced or sourced to primary documents in an OR-ish manner. I'm not sure that any of it is suitable for merging, but it would be a good idea to cover that material properly in this article and then delete the other article. Zerotalk 06:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have completed this merge, since there were no objections. I think I got it right, but there are likely a few things that need sorting out to better locations in the article. Skyerise (talk) 17:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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