Talk:Billy Mitchell

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External links modified[edit]

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Military Naming claim[edit]

This claim, "He is also the only individual for whom an American military aircraft design, the North American B-25 Mitchell, is named," in the introduction, seems incomplete, since the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter is also named after an individual. I feel that this should be either changed to "the only United States citizen" or "the only fixed wing aircraft," or some other way to separate the B-25 from the UH-60. 68.49.40.87 (talk) 18:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The US Army has named a number of aircraft after Native American individuals, including the CH-54 Tarhe helicopter named for Tarhe, and the T-42 Cochise airplane named for Cochise. - BilCat (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Medal of Honor claim[edit]

So this one has been disproven many times, but for some reason your page still lists Mitchell as a MoH recipient, and cites the USAF (which is obviously wrong). The Senate Report from the 1970s erroneously confused Mitchell's Congressional Gold Medal as a Medal of Honor, which is the source of the error in the Army's Center of Military History listing, etc. They have since removed the award listing from the DoD's database at https://valor.defense.gov/Recipients/Army-Medal-of-Honor-Recipients/ (it's conspicuously absent under either the Army or AF listing for the MoH). The bill for Mitchell's award was amended to say "a gold medal" in the body instead of the original language, which was "a Medal of Honor." But they forgot to edit the title of the bill, which was passed saying it was a Medal of Honor (which does not control the legislation). When the House committee that made the amendment reported the change, it clarified that "it should be noted that the legislation under consideration does not authorize an award of the Congressional Medal of Honor," which seems very dispositive on this point. See Mears, The Medal of Honor: The Evolution of America's Highest Military Decoration, p. 149. The bill in question was for the Congressional Gold Medal that the AF helped to design, and which is in the possession of the National Museum of the AF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxtrot5151 (talk • contribs) 03:11, 20 April 2019 (UTC) So, recommend clarifying that it's a citation for a Congressional Gold Medal, and remove the photo of the AF Medal of Honor, which did not even exist at that time (thus, it would be erroneous even if Mitchell had received a MoH, which he did not) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxtrot5151 (talk • contribs) 03:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC) And if you look at the Center of Military History's site (https://history.army.mil/moh/asaoc.html), it has the following explanation of Mitchell's award: "1) There is some debate as to whether William Mitchell was in fact awarded the Medal of Honor or the Congressional Gold Medal. The act cited directs that "a gold medal" be struck and presented in recognition of Mitchell's pioneer service and foresight. It does not, however, specify which medal was to be awarded. In July 1945 the War Department had recommended to Congress that special gold medals be voted by Congress in cases of outstanding leadership and that the Medal of Honor be reserved for awarding only gallantry in action. Colonel William "Billy" Mitchell was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal, which was announced using the identical citation and approved date as listed for the award above. It seems apparent that the intention was to award the Gold Medal rather than the Medal of Honor. However, for some unknown reason, when the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs published its report, Medal of Honor Recipients: 1863-1978 (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1979) compiling all Medal of Honor Recipient citations, William Mitchell and his citation were included. This website takes its Medal of Honor citations from that report, and that is why Mitchell's citation is included here - though it should be noted, the "gold medal" authorized above is most likely the Congressional Gold Medal, rather than the Medal of Honor." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxtrot5151 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Posthumous promotion claim[edit]

So I looked into this because I saw multiple references to him being promoted to Maj. Gen. decades apart, which cannot possibly be accurate. I've also seen multiple sources saying both that FDR and Truman promoted him, but with no citation. The AF history office says the 1942 bill failed to pass, and the 2003 bill cited in this article also failed to pass. I verified that Mitchell's promotion was included in the FY2005 NDAA (118 Stat. 1918), but the AF history office again says that was never acted on (since the bill merely allows it to happen, which of course doesn't ensure it will). The AF history office claimed that a 1930 law allowed officers from WWI to be retired at the highest rank held (even temporary rank) during WWI. I pulled the law, and it does indeed say this, but Mitchell appears excluded because it only applies to officers advanced to the retired list. Due to Mitchell's resignation, it appears this never occurred--I checked in the Army Register from 1926 to 1928 and he wasn't in it, so evidently he just resigned without retiring. By law that would make him a Colonel at the point of separation, and while he held Brig. Gen. several times, he's not covered under that law, so he is not considered a retired general, or a retiree at all (evidently). I tried to scrub the article while incorporating this new information, but I undoubtedly didn't get everything (someone stuck a picture of major general stars in there that I'm not sure what do with--I guess we can find a picture of colonel rank?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxtrot5151 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sub-caption in the Infobox, under "Rank" says "The highest rank achieved by the person." The highest rank that Mitchell achieved, was brigadier general. The template's caption doesn't say "The highest permanent rank achieved by the person," or "The retirement rank of the person." Whether or not the highest rank achieved is temporary or permanent is negligible since the U.S. military still uses temporary ranks to this day. The fact that he retired as a colonel instead of a brigadier general also negligible since there are plenty bios in wiki, i.e. Joe Sestak and a lot more, have their highest temporary rank listed in the Infobox. Neovu79 (talk) 05:01, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I get it, although I don't see that infobox description. In this context it seems more significant because of the effective demotion, which of course flows from the fact that he didn't serve satisfactorily at that rank (evidenced by his repeated misuse of his office, courts-martial, etc.). Also notable that the 1930 law elevated virtually every WWI temporary general officer to that permanent grade in retirement, other than Mitchell, owing to his resignation. That is a discernable difference and one that isn't captured by just referring him to the highest rank temporarily held. In my opinion, it needs some kind of asterisk, because "highest rank achieved by a person" at least implicitly conveys that he served in that grade satisfactorily, which he objectively did not. Even the USAF agrees at some level, for they were authorized to promote him to Major General in 2004 and chose not to do so. Foxtrot5151 (talk) 15:51, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Foxtrot5151 in order to see the subcaption. you have to be editing the Infobox in normal "Edit" instead of "Edit Source". "Highest rank achieved by a person" doesn't implicitly convey that a person served in grade satisfactorily. Unfortunately, the U.S. military does not use asterisks for ranks, temporary or permanent. You're either retired in your highest rank or you're not; assuming you meet the other requirements for retirement. Officers like General William E. Ward, who served 5 years in the rank of general, was found to have not served satisfactorily in that rank, and was retired as a lieutenant general. As for officers not being promoted, that happens a lot more often than you think, and 99% of the time, never makes the news. A very good recent example is Major General Patrick Matlock. He was confirmed by the Senate for appointment to lieutenant general in April 2021, but he never assumed the rank. This month, he was nominated for appointment to that rank again, but will have to go through the senatorial confirmation process again. Neovu79 (talk) 04:47, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Got it, thanks for the explanation. I guess I would prefer something more like was used for the Wikipedia page for Samuel Koster (the general demoted after My Lai). If you go to his page, you'll see it has both the highest rank held as well as rank at retirement, which I think is far clearer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_W._Koster Foxtrot5151 (talk) 21:29, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Foxtrot5151 and Neovu79: On the topic of Matlock, that did make the official Defense.gov new releases, but the page must have been scrubbed away after Matlock's nomination was scuttled. Matlock was initially nominated to succeed James Pasquarette as Deputy Chief of Staff, G8 but despite being confirmed, he indeed did not assume the rank for unexplained reasons (Brian J. Mennes is also a good example here).
We have no idea if it's because the CSA changed his mind last-minute or because Matlock was under investigation (unlikely as investigations at this level are usually publicised after a certain point). Instead, Erik C. Peterson became the nominee and Matlock was left in the dust as a special assistant to the director of the Army Staff until this September, when he got assigned to the plum assignment of Deputy Chief of Staff, G3/5/7. SuperWIKI (talk) 02:47, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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