Talk:Bishop of St David's

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Bishops of Mynyw (St Davids)[edit]

The list of bishops here is presumably based on legendary sources? The Annales Cambriae have the following sequence, which arguably represents the only reliable record up to the end of the 13th century:

a) Sadyrnfyw d. 831 (A, B and C);
b) Nobis (Nyfys?) 840 - 873/4 (A, B and C);
c) Lunberth d.943 (A, B and C. B records a Lunberth being consecrated in 874, but this seems too early for the Lunberth who died in 943);
d) Eneuris d.945 (A and C only);
e) Riderch d.963/4 (B only);
f) Morgeneu d.999 (B and C).

It's not clear why Eneuris has been omitted from B, or why Riderc appears in B alone. It is likely that Eneuris was a Bishop of St Davids and has been omitted by accident, but Riderc's status must be less certain. --Henrywgc (talk) 11:44, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

0. Morgeneu (or Morgynnyd) d.1024/5 (only in Annales Cambriae B as 'Morgannuc' - perhaps 'the bishop of Morgannwg' is intended? -, see also ByT sub anno MXXIII);
1. Erbin d.1040;
2. (Trahaearn? - attested only in Gerald of Wales 'Itinerary', 2.i);
3. Joseph d. 1062/3;
4. Bleiddud d. 1073;
5a. Sulien 1073 - 1078;
6. Abraham 1078 - 1080;
5b. Sulien 1080 - 1091;
(Rhygyfarch m. Sulien d. 1099 - never bishop?)
7. Wilfred (Gruffydd) d. 1115;
8. Bernard 1115 - 1148;
9. David fitz Gerald 1148 - 1176;
10. Peter 1176 - 1198;
(Gerald de Barri 1198 - 1203, elected but never consecrated. Set aside by Pope Innocent III)
12. Geoffrey 1203 - 1214;
13. Gervase (Iorwerth) 1214 - 1229;
14. Anselm le Gros 1229 - 1247;
15. Thomas Waleys (Wallensis) 1248 - 1255;
16. Richard Carew 1256 - 1280;
17. Thomas Bek 1280 - 1298.
The B and C texts break off in 1286 and 1288 respectively. --Henrywgc (talk) 23:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, obviously that's all off. The B text has "Morleis", not "Eneuris".
See also here and the diocese's website:
0. Dubricius (Archbishop of Caerleon)
1. David (Archbishop of Caerleon → Archbishop of St. David's)
2. Cenauc. [=Cynog]
3. Eliud or Teilaus. [=Teilo]
4. Ceneu or Kenea.
5. Morwal or Morvael. [=Morfael]
6. Haernunen or Haernurier. [=Haernynin]
7. Elwaed or Elvaeth. [Elbodus of Gwynedd, 610–]
8. Gurnuen or Gurnel. [=Gurnuru]
9. Lendivord or Leudinord or Lendywyth. [=Llunwerth]
10. Gorwysc or Gorwyst. [=Gwrgwst]
11. Gogan or Gorgan. [=Gwgan]
12. Cledauc. [=Clydog]
13. Anian or Einaen. [=Einion]
14. Elbodg, Elvoed, Elbodu, or Eludoeth. [=Elfodd; Elbodius, –809]
15. Ethelmen or Eldunen. [=Ethelman]
16. Elanc or Elnaeth. [=Elaunc]
17. Malscoed or Maelskwythe. [=Maelsgwyd]
18. Sadermen or Madenew. [=Sadyrnfyw; Sadurnven, –832]
19. Catellus or Catulus. [=Cadell]
20. Sulhaithnay or Sulnay.
21. Novis (841–873) or Namis, alias Nonis. [=Nobis]
22. Etwal or Doythwall. [=Idwal]
23. Asser (c. 905).
24. Arthuael or Alhuael. [=Arthfael, Arthwael, Arthvael, Arthmail]
25. Sampson. [=Samson]
26. Ruclinus. [=Ruelin]
27. Rodherich. [=Rhydderch]
28. Elguni. [=Elwyn]
29. Lunverd or Lumberth, or Lywarch or Luvert (–944). [=Llunwerth]
30. Morcleis or Morleis (944–945). [=Morfyw, placed before Llunwerth on diocese site]
31. Everus or Eueuris (945–946) [=Eneuris].
32. Nathan.
33. Jevan (for 1 night). [=Ieuan, John, Evan, Efan, &c.]
34. Argustel. [=Arwystl]
35. Morgenveth, Morgeney or Uregeneu (–998 or 1000). [=Morgeneu, placed before Nathan on diocese site]
36. Morgeneu or Morgynnyd (998 or 1000–1023).
37. Heurun or Ervin or Hernun or Herbin. (1023–1039).
38. Tramerin or Carmerin (1039–1055). [=Trahaearn]
39. Joseph (1055–1063). [=Joseff]
40. Beithyd or Bledud (1063–1071). [=Bleddud, Bleiddud]
41. Sulghein or Sulien or Sulgenius (1071–1076).
42. Abraham (1076–1078).
43. Sulghein (1078–1085).
44. Rythmarch or Rikemarth. (1085–1096), his son. [omitted by diocese site]
45. Wilfrid or Griffri (1096–1112 or 1115).
46. Bernard (1115–c. 1147)
47. David Fitz-Gerald (1147–1176)
48. Peter de Leiâ (1176–1198)
49. Geraldus Cambriensis [=Gerald the Welsh], alias Barry (unconsecrated; 1199–1203).
50. Geoffrey de Hennelawe (1203–1214).
51. Gervase or Iorwerth (1215–1229).
52. Anselm le Gros (1229–1247). [=Anselm the Fat; diocese has "le Gras"]
53. Thomas the Welchman or Wallensis (1247–1255). [=Thomas the Welsh]
54. Richard de Carrew or Karreu (1255–1280). [diocese has "de Carew"]
55. Thomas Becke (1280–1293). [diocese has "Beck"]
56. David Martin or Martyn (1296–1327 or 1328).
&c.
 — LlywelynII 22:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Removed[edit]

Cleaned up list per above, particularly given the self-contradictory nature of the earlier dating and the general agreement of the Fasti w/the diocese's own list.

So, pending more detailed cite and explanation for their non-inclusion in the two more authoritative sources, removed these two to here:
|align=center|{{circa|946}} ||align=center|''unknown'' ||'''[[Sulhidyr]]''' ||<small>Also known as Hubert
|align=center|''unknown'' ||align=center|978 ||'''[[Ivor (bishop)|Ivor]]''' ||<small>
 — LlywelynII 23:01, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

  • The B text has 'Morleis', the C text 'Morcleis' in its year before Eneuris. Mor(c)leis was a bishop of Bangor. The point is that the A and C texts are St Davids documents, the A text being the earliest witness to a text compiled in the mid-tenth century. If the St Davids compiler in the mid-tenth century was not able to provide a continuous list of Bishops for the see, then we should be suspicious of later, fuller lists for this period. I would be inclined to treat them as apocryphal. Henrywgc (talk) 00:17, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Nobis (bishop)[edit]

This is not a major issue, since as far as I know this list has been compiled for us and is not published anywhere too important (e.g., the Church in Wales site doesn't seem to use one anywhere and UniLondon only goes back to 1066). However, Nobis/Novus/Nyfys doesn't seem to have existed; instead, it was a "well-born" guy named Einion (ByT) that the AC scribes got confused about. This is not Henry's fault in the least: Gerald of Wales includes "Novis" on his list and some scholars seem to as well. The best evidence is his "relative" Asser talking about "[http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/john-asser/assers-life-of-king-alfred-ala/page-4-assers-life-of-king-alfred-ala.shtml Archbishop Nobis"... but in a passage that readily admits a reading of "Our Archbishop" as well.

At the very least, we need to mention the issue [done] and find a place for the ByT's Einion here [how firm is the dating concerning the end of "Nobis"'s "reign"?]. Better still if (a) there's evidence of Asser's family that has a prominent Einion lying around or (b) some form of Nyfys is attested in land documents or elsewhere where it's unquestionably a name and we could wrap it up. [Bishop Einion almost lost to history by comfused later readers of Asser's life; or Bishop Nobis followed by Bishop Einion before 871; or firm dates and evidence for Bishop Nobis and we can assume the ByT has erred.] — LlywelynII 13:07, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

  • I don't think we should be too hasty about dismissing Nobis. All three texts of Annales Cambriae mention his accession, c.840: A, Nobis; B, Nouus; C, Nouis; and his death, c.873: A, Nobis et mouric moriuntur; B, Nouus episcopus et meuruc moriuntur; C, Nouis episcopus moritur. Wendy Davies considered the Meurig coupled with Nobis to be the king Meurig ab Arthfael of several of the Llandaff charters. The Welsh vernacular chronicles (subsumed by Dumville under the general title of Brenhinoedd y Saeson) are all late-thirteenth century translations from a Welsh Latin text related to Annales Cambriae. Of the three principal texts (P, R and S) only one, R, names a bishop consecrated at Mynyw at 840, and calls him 'Meuryc'. The P text (aka 'ByT') only refers to the bishop as being 'noble-born' bonheđic, which could be a 'translation' of Nobis. At 873, P names this bishop, in recording his death, as 'Eynion uonhedic', but R continues to call him 'Meuryc, escob bonhedic'. It is possible that the compiler misread a note as 'Nobis qui et Meuryc'. It should also be noted that, as well as the references in Giraldus and Asser ('Novis'), a Bishop Nouis is mentioned in the Book of Llandaff, and appears as a witness to three charters in the Book of St Chad. Henrywgc (talk) 14:58, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Side point[edit]

I've aimed to avoid Wiki OR problems by stating very firmly he's traditionally credited and allowing the texts to speak for themselves. However, as far as concluding one way or the other, I can't because I can't find another source talking about this problem. Bad for Wiki but interesting for me: Whether this turns out pro- or anti-Nobis, anyone able to walk me through publishing a monograph? ^_^ — LlywelynII 13:07, 13 February 2013 (UTC)