Talk:Black metal

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
Camera-photo.svg
 It is requested that an image or photograph be included in this article to improve its quality. The Free Image Search Tool may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.
WikiProject Echo      (Finnish)
Other languages square icon.svg Black metal is a featured article on the Finnish Wikipedia. You may be able to improve the article on this project by drawing content, media or references from that article. To get involved with featured articles in other languages, visit WikiProject Echo or its discussion page.
          This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Music genres (Rated B-Class)
Gnome-speakernotes.svg
Music portal
Black metal is within the scope of WikiProject Music genres, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardise music genre articles on Wikipedia. Please visit the project guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us assess and improve genre articles to good and 1.0 standards.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
WikiProject Metal (Rated B-Class, Top-importance)
E-Guitare-horiz.png
Heavy metal portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of heavy metal on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject Black Metal (Rated B-Class, Top-importance)
Peter's Cross.svg
Heavy metal portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Black Metal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of black metal on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Archive
Archives
February 2002 - May 2006
June 2006 - April 2008

Contents

[edit] Ukrainian Black Metal scene

Do not remove Lucifugum and Nokturnal Mortum from "The second Wave of Black Metal". Ukrainian scene is not less important and known than Polish or French scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Black pauk1488 (talk • contribs) 05:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

These bands do not belong in the "second wave" because neither released any music until 1995. The others are listed there because they all released music before then. Also, who is to say which scene is more or less important? ~Asarlaí 16:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Banning in malaysia

i think under the history section the banning of black metal in malaysia should be mentioned Malacath (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Important (sub-genres)

I just realized this page makes no mention of sub-genres, fusion genres, etc. Most of the other metal subgenre articles have small sections about their sub/fusion genres (see death metal) with links to the main article of that sub-sub genre. This page should have that was well. I propose a section that talks about melodic black metal, symphonic black metal and blackened death metal under their own headings (like the death metal article. We can even have a small black/doom section (see doom metal, they have the section). I will start by adding that section. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 19:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for adding a section for the legitimate subgenres but this black/doom thing smacks of original research and neologism. After all, the entry itself states that "pure blackened doom bands are fairly rare, but bands such as" so-and-so "may be considered part of the style, despite their tendency to focus on black metal." Doesn't sound very convincing that this subgenre really exists then. The doom metal article apparently has many problems so I wouldn't use anything from it, quite frankly. --Bardin (talk) 08:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Everything you say is true and I agree. That being said, black/doom is a real genre. I'm sure sources could be found, but it might be hard. I mean, think about it. Both black and doom are very underground now. So bands that combine both are gonna be seriously underground and rare. But I know the genre exists. Argentum is a perfect example (though they do not have a page here on wikipedia). It's just really slowed down heavy black metal (but not gay like "dark metal" [the stuff where they combine gothic and black metal, like mid-period Rotting Christ or CoF or other gay crap]). But, yeah, I suppose it can be left out. But the other "legitimate" genres should be added as you said. So far the only ones I can think of are blackened death metal, melodic black metal and symphonic black metal. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 18:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Its not original research. Doom-metal.com clearly lists blackened dooma s a genre, and they are in theory the experts.

Q: Should we add "Black and Roll" as a sub-genre? I've heard this term recently used to describe Craft, Off And Die, and some Shining recordings? Having trouble finding online examples of its usage though. E. Swann (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

What about blackened death metal (redirected to here -- bands like Impaled Nazarene and Behemoth (band)) -- how should they be incorporated into the main article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.101.1.21 (talk) 06:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Dark Metal?

Howcome dark metal is redirected to black metal?first of all what they mean by dark metal is that the genre has lyrics having to do with gothic influences such as depression,despair,sorrowness,melancholy and doom influences that also have death metal influences and black metal influences bands like Shade Empire,Graveworm,and Thy Serpent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.172.124 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it has been discussed ad nauseum. People argue over it and won't agree what it is. Also there are only a few sources that even say it exists. I agree, though. Dark metal is black metal fused with gothic metal, like mid-period Rotting Christ or even CoF (though they suck;I mean I think dark metal sucks anyways, but CoF is bad even for dark metal). If someone found some reliable sources supporting its existence then it could be made into an article. There has been a dark metal article on wikipedia before (about 3 times) but each time it was deleted. Too much WP:OR. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 22:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

well ive heard it called blathic metal or Blackend gothic ive heard of dark metal as a description tooMalacath (talk) 16:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Lmao @ "blathic." I've only heard blackened gothic and dark metal. Mostly dark metal. I don't know why there's not much info about it on the web (that can be found easily, anyway). It is a real genre, although I admit there are not many who have played the style and it's a newer genre. Also, I don't think it gets a lot of attention because of a lack of fans. Everyone I know who knows of the genre doesn't like dark metal, and neither do I. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 22:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


Dark metal exists.It is experimental gothic-/doom-black metal. And it's from the post-black metal developments. However there aren't any realiable sources to describe what the genre's haracteristics are, cause it's a relatively new style with not many well-known bands to play it, so it doesn't have its own page. Xr 1 (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Cite your sources, please. Saying things like that without sources to back it up is like making laws with no police to enforce it. Zouavman Le Zouave 10:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


I'm not sure if this was addressed to me, however I'll respond.
There are NO reliable sources about dark metal.The only place in the internet to provide some information about it is doom-metal.com.That's why the arcicle of dark metal was deleted.I was actually against this deletion because in the metal circles, people say that or that is dark metal and give some explanations, as I did above.Also in the metal archives there are plenety of bands laballed as dark metal.But this could not prove anything.
I just gave my personal opinion.I think everything that has developed from black metal by some experimentation, like the music of Ihsahn or Samael, or Arcturus, is post-black.But no sources about that, just some Last.fm tagging...

Xr 1 (talk) 11:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, that therefore reflects your personal vision on the musical landscape and not a reliable testimony made by a published expert in the matter. I think we should spend our time looking for sources rather than dwell on neologisms that still don't have established meanings. Zouavman Le Zouave 12:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This is talk page. everyone here can share their personal thoughts and views.It's made for this + I've already said there are no sources about dark metal so you could search but you'll find nothing.So, discussing further is rather pointless. Xr 1 (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This is from a previous version of Wikipedia's dark metal article, and is the most accurate I've seen. (all bulleted list items below are quoted from that article.)

  • "Dark metal is a subjective term used to describe metal bands from various genres that have combined traits from symphonic black metal, gothic metal, doom metal, dark wave and black metal[1] such as synthesizer use, acoustic guitar experimentation and/or operatic female vocals. The music can be described as an atmospheric, melodic, more sophisticated sound within the metal genre, and sometimes also with progressive touch. The lyrics are often introspective and poetic. Some dark metal bands also often incorporate death metal influences."

But dark metal is not a "subjective" term. If you really like metal music, you know that it's a term agreed by most metal fans, and a very necessary term. Much like another umbrella term "extreme metal". It should be noted that dark metal includes black metal, but NOT death metal. Again, if you really like metal, you know why. Dark metal should be sad, sorrowful, often slow, and just feels "down".

  • "The term is thought to have been coined by German Band Bethlehem, with their album Dark Metal from 1994.source"
  • "Other most important bands in dark metal genre, are Rotting Christ (mid), Thy Serpent, Deinonychus, Empyrium, Agalloch, Forgotten Tomb and Katatonia (early)."

Especially Agalloch, it's a folk metal (or neofolk, sometimes) band, but cannot be described by any better term than "dark metal". There's no universal definition on "dark metal". Some people think that "dark metal" is simply "metal music that is darker than the usual metal music". Maybe we need a disambiguation here. Pagen HD (talk) 10:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand that the dark metal article was deleted because there was no reliable source. But why redirect it? Is there a reliable source for dark metal being the same thing as black metal? Pagen HD (talk) 10:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mock Black Metal

Should mock black metal have a mention somewhere. bands like immortal bacon throne, Asspounder and morbid anal fog are bands ive Heard of. although i dont think it is too "important" to include what are all your thoughts- Malacath Serve in Heaven or Rule in Hell (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it's pointless. Scskowron (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I second that this is pointless, not to mention that Immortal bacon Throne are not a band, although Nokturnal Bacon Throne is a Morbid Anal Fog song. 202.6.138.66 (talk) 05:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ideology: Militarism

Could militarism also be included in the ideology page. I mean, bands like Marduk seem to be very influenced by war and militarism shares some bounderies with nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.24.49 (talk) 12:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It could be added, but it will be tough to add it and keep it in a neutral point of view with decent refs. Undeath (talk) 07:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1st wave of black metal???

Black metal used to mean any group that sung Satanic lyrics. The oposite being white metal which was groups that sung lyrics about the Bible. When Venom released the album "Black metal" it was reference to it being evil / satanic.

Its like saying Helloween are first wave Death Metal as they appeared on an album titled "Death Metal". Everyone knows Helloween aren't Death metal the same way everyone remembers Venom were part of the NWOBHM. Venom sound more like Motorhead only with poorer recording quality and production - Motorhead were a much bigger band with bigger label support.

The relatively new genre taking the name "Black Metal" evolved from Death Metal groups who took a large influence from groups like Venom. Black metal as a genre / sub-genre of extreme metal music started not with Venom etc but was started much later and was greatly influenced by Venom etc.

Quote: Wikipedia "White Metal"

"Eric Wagner himself has commented on marketing the band as white metal:

It was Metal Blade. Back then they called all of it ´Black Metal´, y´know, Slayer, Danzig, etc., all those bands, they are ´Black Metal´, so I didn't grow up believing in all that crap and I think that people didn't believe in it either. It was a question about marketing your band in some way, so I had to do it. So I did this. Metal Blade called us as a “White Metal band” and I just wished they didn't.[3]"

End Quote

I was around then and I read all the magazines (internet wasn't around so we all read the magazines to get the latest info) and I went to many metal clubs and concerts. As Eric puts it is exactly as I remember it. Those trying to say it was a genre were obviously not around at the time. Metalosaurus (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


  • The above comment wasn't signed, so I have to bold-text all my opinions.
  • Black metal was born before death metal. Venom was NWOBHM, that's correct. Venom was also a black metal band, "early black metal" to be specific. Early black metal does sound very different from later black metal, but it was still black metal.
  • Helloween isn't death metal. Venom is black metal. Venom is black metal not because they released an album called "Black Metal", but because they really are black metal. Slayer's lyrics were satanic, that doesn't make them black metal. Slayer is thrash metal.

Pagen HD (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Type in bold as much as makes you feel good, lol. (I have edited the top comment to also use bold my main points - and have signed it) If you are able to read the quote / remark made by Troubles singer 'Eric Wagner' then you will notice he is referring to how it was back in those days. I was there and it is exactly as I remember it. Venom started the term "Black Metal" and it was not seen as a genre but a reference to 'Satanic Metal'. Just as Trouble were seen as "White Metal". Trouble were not Christians anymore than groups such as Slayer were satanic. Its just the name that was being used by the fans and the magazines. Eric Wagner was commenting on how "White Metal" evolved - as an opposite to "Black Metal". If "Black Metal" back in the 80s & early 90s didn't refer to satanic metal then WTF is "White Metal" and how did it come around??!! It seems very strange and if not way toooo coincidental that white is the opposite to black and white metal came after black metal. Isn't also strange how people around at the time (including Eric Wagner) remember black metal as satanic / satanic themed metal and white metal as Christian / biblical themed metal?!! When the genre now referred to as "Black Metal" came around it was made by much later groups who were raised on genres such Death Metal as much as they were influenced by NWOBHM groups such as Venom and their sound was a combination of the two.

Yes obviously Slayer are obviously thrash and it is a good illustration that early death metal quote them as a major influence. Many early death metal groups sound very much like Slayer only a little slower and with the classic death growl. Similarities can be drawn in sound between Slayer and the later inspired groups but this does not make Slayer Death Metal though does it? Metallica were majorly inspired by Motorhead and songs like Phantom Lord off of Kill em all sound just like Motorhead. This does does not make Motorhead "thrash metal" does it? Please this is supposed to be an online encyclopedia based on fact and not peoples opinions. Please use and observe facts like Eric Wagner's quotes. - I can vouch that I personally remember it this way. I can remember reading magazines articles on both black metal and white metal (there was no internet back then so the everyone read the magazine to find out what was new out). Someone must have record of these many articles etc. Metalosaurus (talk) 19:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition to this Eric Wagner's group Trouble was part of Metal blade records and he is quoting how they originally marketed the term "White Metal" as an opposite to "Black Metal" (which obviously meant 'satanic themed metal'). They wouldn't have definetely been aware of what the terminology in the metal music world would have been seen as by the masses at the time. There was no such thing. Black Metal back then meant something different. The so called second wave is when Black Metal started as a genre. Death Metal bands combined their influence & sound with groups like Venom to make the newer sounding genre" Metalosaurus (talk) 20:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Mayhem De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas.ogg

The image Image:Mayhem De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --03:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ideology

I've reorganised the ideology section. Some elements had been overemphasised. If anyone wants to contest this, feel free to revert it and state your case here. Dark Prime (talk) 20:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Although some of the information you added was relevant and useful, a lot of it wasn't. First, there are a number of statements that are either vague or in need of sources. I pointed these out in my last edit. Second, I think the section now focuses way too much on Euronymous. Although he might have been an influential musician, he's still just one (dead) man whose views weren't shared by anyone else in the scene. This section should focus on the views of the majority. I'm going to edit the section accordingly, and you can let me know what you think. ~Asarlaí 17:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I suppose I can understand that I might have exaggerated the role of Euronymous, but at the same time I have the following reservations:
  • Hostility to Christianity is too narrow (given that there are also anti-Islam bands etc.), and hostility to 'organised religion in general' is too broad. Strictly speaking, 'organised religion' also encompasses Church of Satan among others, and there's no doubting that there are BM musicians who support such organisations. Hence I feel 'Right-Hand Path' is a better description.
  • Placing atheism, Paganism and Satanism in the same sentence like that has contradictory tones (Theistic Satanism is certainly not atheistic, Satanism=/=Paganism etc.).
  • I suppose its still worth stressing that BM musicians have had different reasons for their hosility to Christianity: from Satanists like Euronymous to Pagans/nationalists like Vikernes. I included Eric D's remarks on nationalism (which I forgot to cite, although it is in the same link as the Satanist one) because I feel the nationalist angle is exaggerated due to people like him, Euronymous and Infernus as well as the opinions of Ihsahn - who said that the sentiment from the 1990s developed from 'hostility towards society' etc. (also shared by Infernus).
  • I believe the frontman of Judas Iscariot is a bona fide nihilist.

I'm not sure if I've got all my books in balance at the moment, but I look forward to a response. Dark Prime (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mainstream Popularity

From the number of times i've been on this page. I have seen this changed from Underground - Largely Underground - Low to Underground - And now Moderate in Norway Low to underground elsewhere. I see this weird as this is seen as an unknown genre that most people dont know about. Just because alot of bands come from norway, dosent mean its very popular amongst norwegians. Alot of bands also come from sweden. Im going to change this Underground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.212.116 (talk) 18:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC) I have to agree with the norway thing, but tis definatly not purely underground. I liv ein America and can still walk to walmart and by an Immortal album. And thanks to the internet Black MEtal has spread vastly.


It depends on the band and country. Black metal is said to be Norway's largest cultural export, yet in America, it is still relatively obscure. Some bands such as Archgoat, Beherit or Death Yell are still obscure even to a number of black metal fans, while groups like Satyricon, Immortal and Mayhem have garnered some mainstream attention. In order to properly label black metal's popularity, you have to take into account its overall, worldwide popularity. If one were to do that I think it would still fall in the Low to Underground label. There is scattered knowledge of the genre, essentially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.142.191.132 (talk) 18:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Right Hand Path

I'm not sure this is really appropriate terminology to be used on this page... I understand what the editor means by the term, but the term is only in extremely fringe use and as such likely to obfuscate rather than clarify the claims in the article. At the moment it is a phrasing being pushed by a solitary editor; few if any theologians recognise the term as legitimate, and as such I suggest we pick different phrasing. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

  • I understand that it is not a common term, but its the only formal term I've seen used to describe religions such as Christianity. Although most black metal bands oppose Christianity, there's been controversy in some circles concerning attitudes towards religions such as Judaism and Islam - and there have been bands who oppose these religions in their music, while some more prominent artists such as Gaahl have spoken out against them, so I feel it is worth mentioning that black metal bands are not solely opposed to Christianity. At the same time, I've also seen 'anti-religious' used inappropriately, considering that many black metal artists practice religious forms of Satanism as well as Paganism among others. I feel the need to use a term that appropriately encompasses Christianity etc. Dark Prime (talk) 12:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I can see your point regarding the general opposition to religions other than Christianity, although I'd argue in general this opposition is trivially covered in comparison. But the main problem is that "Right Hand Path" is not a formal term; I've not come across a consensus amongst theologians to say that it is, or indeed any substantial coverage within the academic field at all - and that is precisely why the term should not be used. We need to be going for accuracy and clarity; the term Right Hand Path helps with neither. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
"Right hand path" seems to refer to what's more commonly described as Ethical Monotheism or the Abrahamic religions. However, I think black metal's general target is Christianity and I'm unsure if there's a great deal of recorded evidence of blasphemy against Judaism or Islam. Aryder779 (talk) 17:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Black metal separatism in the early 1990's

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, it seems that a number of Norwegian bands were playing death metal in the late 80's and early 90's (Darkthrone, Mayhem, and in the cases of Immortal and Burzum, under different band names). At that point they began to feel death metal had exhausted its possibilities, so they utilized techniques that directly opposed death metal: dissonance, very little palm muting, more use of traditional chords, tremolo picking between two strings instead of one, a thin guitar tone, etc. I think this is worth mentioning in the second wave section. 66.142.191.132 (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WHERE IS GREEK BLACK METAL SCENE???

Greek black metal scene is small but has a distinctive sound that differs from the rest (norwegian) because of the usage of keyboards which noone had use in those days ( darkthrone). and i think it should at least be mentioned in 2nd wave of black metal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotting_Christ Thats why is called distictively greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.18 (talk) 11:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of black metal bands use keyboards, it's nothing special - I hardly think Greek black metal is that notable. ≈ The Haunted Angel 11:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I don't know... The Greek black metal scene was actually pretty important, with bands like Rotting Christ, Necromantia, Varathron and Kawir. Certainly more internationally notable than, say, Les Legions Noires. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:30, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

yes of course they use keyboards but not since late 80s as greek black metals bands.also the riffing is a bit different. more internationally notable than les legions noires and very well known in the underground scene. http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/rants/6-900_when_hades_strikes.aspx

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:DawnOfTheBlackHearts.jpg

Ambox warning pn.svg

Image:DawnOfTheBlackHearts.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a non-free use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.-Andrew c [talk] 23:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


Could someone please fix the rationale for this image? It seems quite stupid that the images are removed by default, rather than being fixed or the uploader being notified. But hey, I don't make the rules. ~Asarlaí 23:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why a non-free image is necessary in this case, or else I would have written a fair use rationale myself. I was being bold removing it from the article, but since there are objectors, I'll give them a chance to fix the issue. Sorry to have caused this article trouble, but hopefully the issue will be addressed. Why do you think this image is in line with WP:FUC? I'd be glad to fix the image myself if I'm convinced the image is necessary.-Andrew c [talk] 12:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Image has been removed, along with another one. -Andrew c [talk] 12:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural origins

Is it appropriate to say that the first wave started in the mid rather than early 1980s, and that the second wave started in Scandinavia? There were plenty of bands outside of Scandinavia and Europe. Dark Prime (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] melodic black metal deleted

someone deleted this page. why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.220.90.98 (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Because of a total lack of sources discussing it as a legitimate subgenre. The AfD discussion is archived here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 19:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I know it was deleted for lack of sources but some bands are directly known as melodic black metal and sound nothing like Darkthrone, Marduk, Mayhem or Gorgoroth and don't have symphonic elements like Emperor, Arcturus or Graveworm. So to my point: what about the odd source that clearly states that they are melodic black metal? If that is so, then shouldn't it be written as such but redirected here? That's just what I think though. Obviously I will get people telling me it's a "fantasy genre" or "it was deleted for lack of sources" such as above. In the underground however, it is a well-known genre. FireCrystal (talk) 22:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that there are no sources to suggest that it is a genre. Yes, some bands are described as "melodic", but then you can find plenty of hits for "raw black metal" as well, and that's not a genre either. Ideally, when all these band articles are completed, then they should have a Style section which can discuss the use of melody in these bands' music, but you cannot conjure up a genre by pointing to uses of the phrase "melodic black metal"... you need sources discussing it as a subgenre. As per the AfD, these sources don't exist. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh well, we can wait some 20+ years before any real sources appear or that it gets rewritten in a way like folk metal has which would be great but what are the chances of that? If you think that melodic is used as a descriptor, I wonder why melodic death metal wasn't deleted along with it. Though I would guess it is much more known as a subgenre than melodic black and the article does need help but that's a different story. FireCrystal (talk) 20:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
The thing about folk metal is that while there isn't a book or an academic essay that has discussed it, there are multiple sources out there treating it as a legitimate genre. There might not be an article page about folk metal on Allmusic but there are reviews on the site that clearly treats it as a genre: eg. "folk metal isn't some empty gimmick; it is a totally legitimate part of world music" here, "Pagan or folk-metal ... has become one of the fastest-growing subgenres in metal" here, etc. The same applies to melodic death metal (moreso since it's been recognized in books). I was not able to find any similar treatment of melodic black metal. Only four reviews on Allmusic even use the term and they just use it an adjective description: eg. "Lord Belial's mix of melodic black metal and powerful death metal". It's the same on About.com: eg. "Gehenna started as a melodic black metal band, and then evolved into a more aggressive black metal band". The use of melodic here is the same as the use of powerful or aggressive. That's different to something like "the entire melodic death metal movement" here. Some of the reviews on Allmusic even insert the term melodic death metal under quotation marks to make it clear that melodic isn't being used as just an adjective: eg. "a German band with a Swedish-style approach to what has been termed "melodic death metal"" here, "three of the terms that one hears in connection with death metal are "technical death metal," "melodic death metal" and "blackened death metal"" here, etc. There's even an article just on melodic death metal on about.com. --Bardin (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Depressive Suicidal Black Metal (DSBM)

If NSBM is given it's own section, shouldn't DSBM be given a section as well? -- Jack

NSBM is a pretty established concept, DSBM isn't. Dark Prime (talk) 19:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ambient black metal

It was suggested I bring this to this talk page. Given that "black ambient" was deleted at AfD way back when, I'm not sure exactly what this is doing on this page. Can anyone provide even a single source discussing "ambient black metal" as a legitimate subgenre? I know all of the bands listed, so I know what you're talking about, but a quick look through Google didn't seem to throw up any reliable sources. Anyone got any? If not, I'll go ahead and remove it as unsourced original research. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, anyone who listens to black metal has been aware of this style. It also seems to be frequently discussed/requested on extreme metal forums, with a Google search throwing up ~80,100 results. It goes without saying that reliable sources are scarce for anything black-metal-related – the main reason being that it's an underground genre. Give it some time and I'm sure we can come up with something. ~Asarlaí 15:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Individualism?

As far as I understand it, Black Metal supports Collectivism far more than it supports Individualism, though, of course, the community that is supported is the "Black Metal scene", or whatever groups bands or musicians may belong to (the "Inner Circle", Les Legions Noires, different countries' individual scenes), rather than a nation, city, neighbourhood, or somesuch community. If we take the Norwegian scene as an example: the Church burnings are an act for the group (or "scene"), not for the individual (though possibly for the individual within the group, as well as for the group itself). I would say that, Black Metal being ostensibly "anti-modernity", at least in its earlier incarnations, a primary message behind the music is that modern society has failed, and that we should revert to systems closer in nature to those of older times, before "Individualism" - that which has now caused this failure of society, the concept that the Individual is greater than the Collective - had come about. ~LR—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.112.166 (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Venom did not coin the term black metal.

One year before Black Metal's release Blue Öyster Cult had a song featured on thier album Fire of Unknown Origin called "Heavy Metal: the Black and Silver.". Albeit Blue Oyster Cult are obvious not a black metal band they were the first to use the term. The song should be mentioned in the article. Rockgenre (talk) 16:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

BOC never used the song title to describe any form of musical style. The song has a science fiction theme. There is no need to mention them anywhere in this article because their song title has nothing to do with the musical style. In the early 1980s before there was definite distinction between the newer extreme heavy styles, the terms black metal, power metal, death metal and thrash metal all meant the exact same thing. It would only depend on which magazine you were reading. Depending on the publication: Metallica was a black metal band and Venom was a death metal band and Anthrax was a power metal band and Motorhead was a thrash metal band. In another magazine those terms would be all switched around for the exact same bands. By the mid-1980s everyone was pretty much on the same page as far as what black, power, death and thrash were. And through all of those years no one ever associated BOC woth any of those newer extreme metal styles. Here endeth your metal history lesson. GripTheHusk (talk) 17:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't associate BOC with extreme metal either, but the song is the first time you hear heavy metal and black come together. I think the song has kind of has a "Born to be Wild" thing about it and by that I mean they were both important in giving genres thier names(even though The Soft Machine came before Born to be Wild), but not really describing a form of music. I think I could at least write something like, "While not the musical precursor to black metal, Blue Oyster Cult's song "Heavy Metal: The Black and Silver" is possibly the origin of the term black metal." Thoughts? Rockgenre (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
This is clearly wrong... BOC did not (to the best of my knowledge) use the phrase "black metal" (with the two words juxtaposed); simply having the words "black" and "metal" in the same title is irrelevant to this article. Regardless, you'd need a reliable source to back up the claim that the song was the origin of the term, rather than idle speculation... this is not a forum, after all. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with Blackmetalbaz. This association is utterly ridiculous. They never used the term "black metal." That's an important and specific correlation. Just using the two words in the same sentence or line has nothing to do with black metal. I'm sure the words "folk" and "metal" were used in the same sentence hundreds of years ago. Does that have anything to do with the musical genre "folk metal"? No. Maybe you think that because it's a musical reference it means something more. It doesn't. The words are not connected. They are not even referring to a type of music together. Case closed. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 02:16, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Red & Anarchist Black Metal section

I've removed the section because I think the term is a neologism. The one source for the term itself is unreliable and not really a source. Of course there are black metal bands with anarchist or communist themes, but that doesn't make it its own genre. Also, am I the only one who has a problem with those two terms together? Sure, anarcho-communism exists but, for the most part anarchy and communism are two very separate ideas. Most bands that espouse those ideas are going to talk about one or the other not both. That would be rare. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 02:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

First of all, we're talking about ideologies, not genres. About the anarcho-communism thing, thats is just your opinion. It is not up to us to pick a name for this new black metal scene. I don't know who came up with this term, but I have read interviews of some anarcho and communist bm bands using this term with not problems. I saw some users adding this section and I think it is proper to acknowledge this "RABM" scene because, politally, black metal it is not just nazism. --Kmaster (talk) 02:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying. I know that that was my opinion. That's not why I removed the section. I was just commenting on the weirdness of that. I removed it because I just don't think there are reliable sources for what you are saying with all respect. I've never heard of the RABM scene and I get that that may just be me, but like I said, the sources. I definitely agree with you that black metal is not just nazism. Far from it. Most black metal fans do not share fascist ideals. That's just a very small community. I'd even go so far as to say that most black metal fans are anti-fascist and anti-nazi. Some of the bigger themes within black metal is misanthropy, chaos, freedom and individualism. Fascism goes against all that. Nazism is all order and intolerance. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 02:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm not Kmaster, but I'll reply here. I certainly agree with almost all of what you've said above; though I don't see any problems with the "Red & Anarchist Black Metal" term. It's just like "Red and Anarchist Skinheads" (which can relate both to redskins and anarcho-skins). If the "RABM" term is a neologism and should be avoided - well, let it be so, but I don't see any reasons why even the brief mentions of RABM bands should be deleted. At least we have sources for them (and NOT only webzines and myspaces). Black Kronstadt (talk) 21:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

i started the section RABM. a similar section already exists in Spanish Wikipedia and anyone can go and see that i didnt create it. i might only have added information there. on the reasons for the inclusion of this section i think enough has been said by black kronstadt and kmaster and even by the same person who erased it in the first place who recognizes such bands. anyway ill try to add more references to streghten the reliability of the information there.--Eduen (talk) 07:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a neologism; you've added it twice, under two different names, which I think is a pretty strong indication that the term is not in widespread usage. The "sources" you've included consist of Myspace and Blogspot, neither of which would ever pass WP:RS. You need something in a print magazine or book, published by an independent, third-party source distinct from the bands. There *are* some websites that pass WP:RS, but that doesn't include any of the metal webzines out there. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

well i can accept the criticism of those kind of references. now i hope you dont believe i invented that thing. just putting red and anarchist black metal in google you will get a lot of different pages from different places talking about it in those exact terms. If you put National Socialist Black Metal you will get similar references as far as "reliability".--Eduen (talk) 05:35, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I see nothing in Google that would pass WP:RS, but if you find anything, please feel free to bring it here (preferably to the talk page first). Regarding the National Socialist black metal page, whilst there are many problems with that page (most of it is original research synthesis, for instance), it still contains many reliable sources to demonstrate its notability. "RABM" has nothing; like I said, you really need some print sources... music magazines and the like (not fanzines! Proper, commercially published ones!) are the way forward. If those don't exist, then the subgenre isn't notable enough to be worth mentioning, even in passing. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:39, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Black_metal"