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Skin Color As Only Feature
Skin color is obviously not the only feature defining black people and not just in the Americas and not just those of direct Sub-Saharan descent. In all the regions referenced in this article, hair texture, facial features and genetic affiliations also variously play a role. The lead as it stands neglects this obvious point. Further reversion on this issue should wait until discussion on this talk page as to the reasons why this fact is being neglected while economic variables which are secondary takes up almost half the lead. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 02:57, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
India and Pakistan
Here are some references to the black construct in India/Pakistan that I added: Pakistan:
- William Ackah, Pan-Africanism (1999), books.google.com/books?isbn=1840143754, p. 98:"A fascinating insight the programme revealed was that in being rejected by Pakistan, these black Pakistanis sought to look for their identity elsewhere. Their search took them not automatically to Africa the place of their origins, but to the fashion and statements and music of michael Jackson."
- National Institute of Folk and Traditional Heritage, Folk Heritage of Pakistan (1977), p. 78, books.google.com/books?id=TGZWAAAAMAAJ:"Most people outside Pakistan, Mr. Mufti explained, do not know that there are black Pakistanis and none was particularly delighted with the reception this group enjoyed."
- The Herald, Volume 36, Issues 10-12, p. 113-114 (2005), books.google.com/books?id=_xwTAQAAMAAJ:"Others arrived when the Sultanate of Oman, having captured Zanzibar in eastern... Rather than discouraging prejudice, the authorities have abetted it by remaining silent on the existence of black Pakistanis...positions which reflects an unabating fear of black people by mainstream society...Sheedi's oral history of black Pakistanis which relies for the most part on anecdotal accounts...I proudly say that I'm Baloch. Because when someone from my community calls me a sheedi, they're actually calling me a 'nigger'. Sheedi also knows that the term is derogatory. But unlike Danish, he is determined to disregard racism and build a community instead. Although religion and musical spirituality unite the black community, Sheedi does not think that it's enough. For that reason, he is on a quest to create a physic space for the sheedis to claim as their own."
- Alice Albinia, Empires of the Indus (2010), books.google.com/books?isbn=0393063224, p.50:"it is possible that one of the effects of a hundred years of British rule was the decline in status of black people in India. This deterioration is evident in the way the word 'Sheedi' – which has no plain etymology in Arabic or any Indian language -was interpreted over the centuries..."
- Ababu Minda Yimene, An African Indian Community in Hyderabad:Siddi Identity, Its Maintenance (2004), p. 211, books.google.com/books?isbn=3865372066: 'Mr. Hussein paints his face black and wears Siddi clothes during his performance so that no one knows that he is an Indian. The Siddi found his statements ludricious because they consider him as black as any Siddi..."
p. 170:"Popularly known as Siddis, these one time warriors represent Black Power in Hyderabad."
p.200:"The Siddi of Hyderabad are comfortable calling themselves Negroes and are addressed as such both in private and public..."
Bedouins et al.
User:Tobus, a new account copied & pasted some generic material from the Bedouin page, claiming here that they are regarded as "black people" in their respective native region. This is of course nonsense. If anything, tribal Bedouins are considered the most genealogically authentic Arabs. He/she also copied & pasted material on adivasi in the Indian subcontinent and some populations in North Africa, none of whom are regarded as "black people" in their respective native regions. Soupforone (talk) 09:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- The bedouin of Arabia, the adivasi of India, the aboriginals of Australia and the Negritos or "Orang Asli" of South Asia are all seen in the same perspective, that is, the first inhabitants of the land (often called the Old Ones/Elders/Ancient/Firsts) and they all share the characteristic medium to extremely dark skin, wooly to wavy hair, and a distinct archaic look that sets the apart from the majority of Arabs, Indians, and South Asians, with the exception of Australians. It makes no sense to list the Negritos and Australians, and not mention the Adivasi and Bedouin.MariaRodrgz (talk) 09:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
What was Afrocentric about anything that I said. The out of Africa theory clearly shows that there are reminants of black populations (founder populations) that stretch from Africa, thru the Arabian peninsula into all Southern Asia. What's Afrocentric about stating a fact, other that the fact it's something you don't want to hear.
The derogatory words for arabs are and have always been "dune coon" and "sand nigg3r", and that's because like the Australians and Negritos, they are a "black" people. Notice I didn't include Syrians, Lebanese, or Iraqis in my edit because they are not nearly as closely related to Africans as the Yemenis and Saudis. If these people aren't black to you, then African Americans and Australians aren't black either, if that's the case then there are no "black" peopleMariaRodrgz (talk) 12:53, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- You are obviously editing from an Afrocentric perspective. This is evident from the comparison of African Americans with unrelated Aboriginal Australians. It is also apparent from the equating of a continent with one so-called race, and especially the claim that peninsular Arabs are regarded as "black" people within their respective region. Various populations, including many from Europe, have at times been called similar derogatory names; so that in itself doesn't mean much. Those links above likewise lead to an Afrocentric user-page. Also, there's no evidence as to what exactly the Out of Africa population may have looked like since that suggested demic diffusion is itself theoretical. We're talking tens of thousands of years ago here. Anyway, stop reverting. Soupforone (talk) 01:13, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Maria, this page is devoted to discussing "black" as a social construct, not for discussing people who have dark skin. "Black" is not widely use a description for Indian people in India and as far as I know, neither is it used in any social context to refer to Bedouins. If you have sources that show otherwise please provide them, but otherwise it's not appropriate for us to discuss them on this page just because they have relatively dark skin.
- In terms of process please read WP:BRP which says that in the event of a dispute the page should be left as it was before the contested edits. So please get agreement here from the other editors before reinstating your edits.
- Tobus (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
If that's the case, then the Negritos are displayed because the Spanish called them little black men. Yet they are not considered "black" in a social setting. With the case of the Australians, they were racially discrimated and demeaned, called fauna and "black people". Yet they as well aren't seen that way. The British viewed the Arabs as sand n's and dune coons, and by that aspect are seen as black, yet they don't see themselves as black, nor do the Australians or the Negritos because determining who's "black" was always done by the Europeans. The adivasi whom are the Dalit or untouchables, and are considered "black and unclean" and due to these circumstances they should be listed as well.
- You are completely wrong about Australian aboriginals - they (and the wider Australian community) consider themselves "black" - not in the sense of African, but in their own right. There are host of references in the article that show this.
- That "Negrito" means "little black" is a valid historical social reference worth mentioning in the article.
- The source you give is not WP:RS and appears to be song lyrics, metaphorical in nature.
- Tobus (talk) 07:20, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I am not wrong because I never said they didn't say that they are black. I said they aren't seen that way, as in, by the white Australians. And with that said the inhabitants, (the nomadic inhabitants) of arabia come from the same wave of people as the Negritos, the Andamanese and the Australians. If we want to talk about black as a social construct, they all of those populations should be listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariaRodrgz (talk • contribs) 02:29, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Then you *are* wrong because white Australians do see Aboriginals as a "black people", as you'd know if you read the article text. I doubt very strongly that the nomadic inhabitants of Arabia, the Negritos, the Andamanese and Indigenous Australians all come from the "same wave of people" - I suspect this is just your personal opinion with no actual evidence to back it up. In any case it's irrelevant to this discussion because we're not talking about genetic relationships or physical descriptions here, we're talking about the constructs of "black people" as used within various societies. Tobus (talk) 08:01, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- The Out of Africa theory actually posits that Arabs and Europeans were spawned from the same migration wave. In any event, it's not particularly relevant and is pretty speculative. Soupforone (talk) 22:55, 24 February 2014 (UTC)