|WikiProject Ships||(Rated Start-class)|
Having a picture is good. But I sent the person who recently added one a question, because it looks like a schooner to me. Geo Swan 18:22, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There has always been a huge amount of debate about where a two-masted schooner ends and a brig begins. After restoring, maintaining, and sailing aboard each of these types of vessels, many discussions with fellow tall-ship sailors of all persuasions, and researching as much as possible, I have determined that the progression is:
Two-Masted Schooner: Two masts, both masts setting a sail attached to the mast at the luff. All sails fore-and-aft. Sails may be gaff or marconi.
Stays'l Schooner: as above, but with no sail set with luff attached to foremast. One or more 'tween-mast stays'ls. Note: Modern Stays'l Schooners may sometimes set fore-and-aft tops'ls with luffs attached to the mast; this is outside the classical definitions.
Square-Tops'l Schooner: As Two-Masted Schooner, but with square topsail(s) on the foremast. A course may be set on the fore.
Main-Tops'l Schooner: As above, but with square tops'l(s) on main mast as well. No course is ever set on the main, but may (rarely) be set on the fore. The schooner Sultana is an example of this rare rig.
Brig(English): Two-masted. Square top'sl's and courses on both masts. No sparred fore-and-aft sail set on the foremast. Stays'ls set 'tween masts. Main course typically referred to as the "mains'l", while the sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically called the "spanker" or "driver". The Stavros S Niarchos is an example, although rarely pictured with the maincourse set.
Brigantine(American)/Hermaphrodite Brigantine(English): As the Stays'l Schooner, with addition of square tops'ls and course on foremast. The Exy Johnson and Irving Johnson are the best examples that come to mind.
Brig(American)/Hermaphrodite Brig(English): As the Brig(English), but with no course set on the mainmast. The sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically referred to as the "mains'l". The Lady Washington is a good example of this rig.
Snow: As the Brig(English), with the sparred fore-and-aft sail aft of the mainmast set at the luff not to the mainmast itself, but to a small "tys'l mast" stepped immediately aft of the mainmast.
The major stumbling block is the difference between New World and Old World definitions. Also, there is the somewhat archaic convention of using terms like "Brig" or "Sloop" to denote classes of vessels based on tonnage or usage, not just rig types. Also, and very rarely, one sees a picture of a Main-Tops'l Schooner setting a full stack on the main, or even worse, a Brig(British) setting a gaff fores'l (like the reproduction Pilgrim). In these strange cases, the distinction is made by carefully scrutinizing the overall sail and rig proportions; a schooner derives her primary drive from fore-and-aft sails (the squares being auxillary sails), whereas the brig derives her primary drive from her tops'ls (the fore-and-aft sails being secondary). Osteoderm 03:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Doug, I agree with you, which is why I have not made any change to article itself. If I had current first-hand access to the appropriate references, I would certianly provide them. Instead, my intention on this discussion page has been to clarify and attempt to steer others with greater access to materials towards providing a clearer article for the layperson. --Osteoderm 22:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
- Osteoderm, the ship you refere to as "Hermaphrodite Brigantine(English)" is called a "Hermaphrodite Brig "(or "Schooner Brig") in historic English nautical documents, I've not come across the term "Hermaphrodite Brigantine" but once, in a newspaper article.
- What you rever to as Brig(American) is called a Brigantine in English literature. Although some sources state that the mainsail on a Brigantine Proper is larger than that of a Brig, the noted differnce between a Brig and a Brigantine, in continental nautical terminology, is the lack of a course set on the main. Refundpolitics (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- size of brigantine
- the dimensions of a Brigantine ship
- the dimensions of a Brigantine ship like the size
Disambiguaton page needed?
Regarding Brig and need to maintain a separate listing for a stub
I am happy to see the difference between a Brig and Brigantine spelled out, although I wouldn't even know what was different was looking at the actual vessels unless it was pointed out to me by someone with more experience. The problem I have with maintaining Brig separately as a stub is that unless the article Brig is significant on it's own, it should be combined together with Brigantine and have the differences explained which is basically what is already being done now. Brig is an archaic reference to a similar type of ship and can refer back to Brigantine in order to clarify the differences between both.
The fact that Brig and Brigantine are not synonymous does not justify a separate page for Brig if it is only a stub. Unless there is significant content that clearly delineates one type of ship by another, not just a slight modification of the masts and ship construction, then the articles belong together, not separate.
In reviewing the other ship links, it would be likely that Hermaphrodite brig should also be combined here for the same reasons.
I thereby propose that Brig and Brigantine be combined. Gohiking 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- Makes sense after all, since the definitions apparently vary through time and places. After a lifetime reading everything I happen to stumble on about sailingvessels, I can sum up that anyway in the Baltic it has mostly (not always) been defined that a brig has square sails on both masts, and a gaff sail in addition on the mizzen mast, whereas a brigantine has squares on the main mast, but only fore-aft sails on the mizzen, exactly as the pictures in both articles show today. Snow is an unknown type here, but seems to me to have more to do with size and possibly countryvise differings. With thorough explanation and redirections above proposal seems logical. Islander(Scandinavia) 01:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think this would be ok as long as both terms are emboldened, and the difference between the two is clearly articulated at the beginning of this article. Care should be taken to ensure that a casual reader does not mistake the redirect for an indication that the two are synonymous. Gsnixon 12:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Modern parlance makes distinctions where, historically, there were none in regard to brig vs. brigantine. For much of the brig(antine)'s history as a working vessel, the terms brig and brigantine were fully interchangeable. Unless significant material can be added to contextualise these intimately related vessels, I agree that Brigantine, Brig, and Hermaphrodite brig should be merged.Chang E 04:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- The terms 'brig' and 'brigantine' are still interchangable for the most part. People know what a 'brigantine' is, but a 'brig' could be a 'brig' or a 'brigantine'. The difference between brigs and brigantines is incredibly small, and the 'brig' article is - right now - completely focused on that difference, leaving little to discuss. I think that if someone found a different focus for the article, while still conveying the difference it would be worth preserving the article individually. But as it stands the article could be merged into 'brigantine' with a line similar to: "a brig is similar to the brigantine, however it is square rigged on both masts". Edit: In light of the de-stubbing of the brig article and large addition of material I don't think that the articles 'brig' and 'brigantine' should be merged. Digital Lyon 21:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
De-stub of Brig article
As I was working in the Wikipedia:Most wanted stubs page and Brig was listed as number 2, I managed to move the article from stub class to B Class as per the judgement of someone from the Military history WikiProject. I would argue that there is now sufficent material in the brig article to merit it not being merged.--Wowaconia 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This is internally inconsistent
The article says:
By the first half of the 18th century the word had evolved to refer not to a ship type name, but rather to a particular type of rigging: square rigged on the foremast and fore-and-aft rigged on the mizzen. Many sloops were "brigantine-rigged".
A sloop can't possibly have a different rigging on the foremast from the mizzen, it doesn't have either. I have therefore deleted the italicized text.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 04:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Just a note: The word sloop does not necessarily mean any single-masted for-and-aft-rigged vessel with at least one headsail and the mast relatively far forward. It has also been used to refer to weight or armament classes. I believe one definition was a ship-rigged warship of fewer than 20 guns, but I am sure that there have been others. The author of the article clearly meant main when he wrote mizzen. I think that without the deleted text it is unclear what is meant by "ship type name" as opposed to "type of rigging." Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I have could elaborate on exactly how the meaning of the word changed. In any case the text could be changed to clarify that the author meant "general type and size of vessel" by "ship type." I would add that it is misleading to use the term ship for vessels in general when discussing types of rig, as in this context ship means a vessel having three square-rigged masts each comprising distinct lower, top, and topgallant sections, and that the word rig should be used for type of sail plan as a whole rather than rigging, which refers specifically to the lines used to support and control the rig.Gjh88 (talk) 09:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- WP already has the distinction clarified, under the article Sloop-of-war. A link within a sentence explaining that "Sloop-of-war" was often shortened to "Sloop" should suffice, no? Czrisher (talk) 20:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
It seems we have a picture of a Hermaphrodite Brig on the Brigantine Page, and a picture of a Brigantine on the Hermaphrodite Brig Page. Is there some reason for this? IgniFerroque (talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The following is a usefull diagram to show the different two masted vessels rigging plans, in relation to their classicifaction.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_Rigging_differences_in_schematic_view.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by Refundpolitics (talk • contribs) 14:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)