Talk:Bryn Mawr College

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pronunciation[edit]

As a Welshman, I'm interested to know how Bryn Mawr in Pennsylvania is pronounced by the locals. The Welsh pronunciation is 'bryn mowrr' (rhyming with 'cow', but with a rolling r at the end) Pembrokeshire is also a county in Wales, if that helps. Ham 13:49, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

"Bryn" rhymes with "win" and "thin". "Mawr" rhymes with "car" and "jar". -- Dominus 14:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

That's how you Americans pronounce it? That sounds horrible; I prefer the real pronounciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.87.42 (talk) 06:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

It's true that Pembrokeshire is a county in Wales, but according to the M. Carey Thomas biography (mentioned as a reference), that's oddly not why she chose the name. Go figure. Deborah-jl 20:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Our motto isn't "I love the truth," but "I have chosen the truth"-- or at least that's what I was taught while I attended. I like that much better!

It isn't "Dilexi Veritatem" either! It's "Veritatem Dilexi"! (I will correct the article shortly.) Do you think you could go by the College's public relations office and ask them for an authoritative statement of what it means? -- Dominus 14:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Veritatem Dilexi means both "I love the truth" and "I have chosen the truth." Dilego means literally to "choose out", hence "to prize" and thus "to love" or "to esteem highly." I would suggest, however, that one of the more usual verbs for love (amo being the most obvious) would have been chosen if that were the primary meaning, so it should be translated "I have chosen"; but in Latin the motto quite elegantly contains both meanings.

Why is Katherine Hepburn listed as an alumna? She dropped out--didn't graduate. Suggest removal.

First of all, she graduated from Bryn Mawr.[1] Secondly, MW's eleventh collegiate says a drop out who attended is considered an alumna. Deborah-jl 03:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The character played by Marilyn Monroe in Some Like It Hot did NOT graduate from Bryn Mawr--she just pretended she had. (unsigned)

As to pronunciation, in Albuquerque, NM, there is a section of the UNM University area where the streets are named after famous colleges, including Yale, Stanford, and Bryn Mawr. I've always heard "brin marr" as the pronunciation of the street. I have never, to me knowledge, heard the name pronounced by someone referring to the college. --BlueNight (talk) 03:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Photos for use[edit]

Cloisters
Great Hall

I took these photos while visiting campus with an alumna a few months ago. I'm not comfortable enough with the history/relevance of the subjects to put them to use myself, but feel free to incorporate them into any of the Bryn Mawr-related pages if you think they might be appropriate. -- JVinocur 21:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

 

 

 

 

 

Sunset over Goodhart Hall

Significant Places Section[edit]

I added a section about significant places and architecture and encorporated your photos. If anyone has good photos of Erdman Hall (or any other campus features) that would be great. --Ismelstar 16:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Another Photo[edit]

 

I took this photo in the fall of 1999. I spent about a year and a half at Bryn Mawr before I got the heck out.  — Anna Kucsma 14:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Jane Goodall[edit]

An anonymous editor recently added Jane Goodall to the list of Bryn Mawr faculty. I was not able to find any evidence that Goodall had ever taught at Bryn mawr, either through general Google search for '"Jane Goodall" "Bryn mawr"', in the Wikipedia article on Goodall, or on the Bryn Mawr Anthropology department web pages. I removed the entry. If Goodall did teach at Bryn Mawr, the listing should be accompanied by a citation. -- Dominus 15:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The editor probably got her confused with Jane Goodale, who *did* teach at Bryn Mawr. Her anthropological specialty was enthography, not primatology. Batshua 05:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Alumnae[edit]

I think the alumnae list should be changed to a table, with columns for name, year of graduation, degree, and what they're famous for. This would make it easier to read. Also, should this list be arranged by date of graduation, rather than alphabetical by last name? --Libertylaw 21:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Counties?[edit]

"Each is named after a county in Wales: Brecon, Denbigh (1891), Merion (1885), and Radnor (1887)."

These are towns, not counties. the counties associated with these towns are Brecknockshire, Denbighshire, Merionethshire and Radnorshire.

changed 'county in wales' to 'county town in wales.' 80.176.236.203 16:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

US Centric Viewpoint Contested[edit]

I understand that universities nurture a great many Wikipedians, and they have a good deal of school spirit; however, the primary definition of Bryn Mawr is not Bryn Mawr College. It is very difficult for us to not take a self-centric point of view. Bryn Mawr is a farm near the Welsh town of Dolgellau; a census-designated place in Pennsylvania; a city in CA; a neighborhood in Minneapolis, MN; a census-designated place in WA; a Historic District in Chicago, IL; and a rapid transit station on the Chicago.

A search for Bryn Mawr should not redirect to Bryn Mawr College. I take exception to this undo by JHunterJ. I will remove the redirect to this page unless there is reason to believe that this college definition trumps places across the US and abroad. Nicholas SL Smith 00:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Erdman hall?[edit]

Why is Erdhman hall considered "one of this century's great buildings"? Is this official or someone's opinion? It seems that without citation, this should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.106.214.149 (talk) 01:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This classification comes from The Architecture Week's Catalougue, Great Building's Collection. I've added the reference.--Ismelstar (talk) 17:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Sister School to Princeton[edit]

Someone wrote that because of its affiliation with the Seven Sisters colleges, Bryn Mawr was considered the sister school to Princeton University. First of all there was not a required direct link to a "brother" institution in order belong to the Seven Sisters. And secondly if Bryn Mawr were to associate itself with any male counterpart, it clearly would have been Haverford College. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.49.151 (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Bryn Mawr in the news...?[edit]

Under the History section, someone has inserted a paragraph about Bryn Mawr's recent inclusion in an article about women's colleges promoting themselves in the Middle East. However this doesn't seem appropriate to include under the History section, so perhaps we could push it under a new one?Talkmuchlater (talk) 14:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree.

Here is the paragraph, removed from the main article until a decision is made or it is edited down to something more reasonable. This really doesn't seem like history...more like current events or current issues. Further, this section seems disproportionate to the length of the entire article.

A June 03 2008 article in The New York Times discussed the move by women's colleges in the United States to promote their schools in the Middle East. The article noted that in doing so, the schools promote the work of graduates of women's colleges such as Hillary Rodham Clinton, Emily Dickinson, Diane Sawyer, Katharine Hepburn and Madeleine K. Albright. The Dean of Admissions of Bryn Mawr noted, "We still prepare a disproportionate number of women scientists [...] We’re really about the empowerment of women and enabling women to get a top-notch education." The article also contrasted the difference between women's colleges in the Middle East and "the American colleges [which] for all their white-glove history and academic prominence, are liberal strongholds where students fiercely debate political action, gender identity and issues like “heteronormativity,” the marginalizing of standards that are other than heterosexual. Middle Eastern students who already attend these colleges tell of a transition that can be jarring."[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.249.220 (talk) 20:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Article sprucing up[edit]

The phrase "highly selective" has no place in the article, least of all in the opening sentence of the lead, which is why I have removed it. It is a weasel phrase and peacock term that conveys no actual meaning than to serve as boosterism for the institution. Furthermore, no institution or publication classifies colleges as "highly" selective, so it's not even verifiable. Assert facts, not opinions and just describe the admissions numbers (number of applicants, number admitted, number matriculated, and freshmen retention) in the body of article and don't tell the reader what to think. I doubt that a 50% acceptance rate qualifies as "highly selective" in an era when some universities have a rate a fifth of that. In either case, present the facts neutrally to let the reader make his or her own determination.

I've also reorganized the article structure to bring it in line with WP:UNIGUIDE standards which are used for the university featured articles as well. I've also added some much-needed substantiation of information from the Carnegie Classifications and Common Data Set which should be expanded, not reverted. Thank you. Madcoverboy (talk) 14:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Your claim that "highly selective" is "not verifiable" is evidently false. It is a widely reported fact, and the article attributed this fact to multiple independent, reliable sources. You have repeatedly removed these citations. I will remind you of the opening words of wikipedia's core policy at WP:V:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.
Unless you can provide a reliable reference to support your claim that Bryn Mawr is not highly selective, I will restore the deleted text. —Dominus (talk) 13:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Making the assertion that the college is "highly selective" in the opening sentence of the lead flies in the face of a wide body of precedent (e.g., university FAs) and guidelines (WP:UNIGUIDE, WP:PEACOCK, WP:BOOSTERISM, WP:ASF, WP:MORALIZE). I do not have to carry any burden of proof to prove that Bryn Mawr is not selective, only demonstrate that making such a claim violates Wikipedia policy and precedent. You're welcome to file a RFC if you believe otherwise. Madcoverboy (talk) 14:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
"Precedent" is irrelevant here, since the policy is quite clear. The burden of proof is on you because you are deleting cited information. It is your opinion that "highly selective" is a "peacock phrase". Your opinion in this case is outweighed by policy and by the facts, as supported by the verifiable, reliable, independent citations that you deleted. —Dominus (talk) 14:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't know why I have to keep bringing up WP:ASF and WP:MORALIZE to demonstrate that having verifiable information is a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion. To use the example of the Beatles, there are a wide number of "verifiable, reliable, independent citations" asserting that they are the best band of all time, but it is not the place for Wikipedia to nakedly make such a claim, only to attribute such an opinion to reliable sources. Thus, the fact that Bryn Mawr is highly selective is an opinion and is not a fact given that one can legitimately dispute the "highly selective" classification of an institution that admits half of its applicants. The dissonance of your stance is all the more jarring when institutions whose selectivity is not at all in question (Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Chicago, Julliard, etc.) do not even mention this distinction. Rather, it appears that "highly selective" is being used as a peacock or weasel word to purposefully connote quality, prestige, or some other sort of NPOV violation. I have filed a WP:3O and notice at WT:UNI for further feedback. Madcoverboy (talk) 16:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
If Bryn Mawr is highly selective then the facts can speak for themselves rather than subjective and WP:PEACOCK statements. I also think that, since "highly selective" isn't really what defines Bryn Mawr, it doesn't fit in with the purpose of a WP:LEAD summary (certainly not what I'm looking to learn when I read about universities on Wikipedia!). It also reeks of WP:BOOSTERISM when it's placed there. It's better in the body of the article and even then must still meet WP:V. I also agree with Madcoverboy that editors who wish to include information need to meet WP:BURDEN, and other editors who don't determine the proof to be WP:RS have a right to remove it, as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think that editors who wish to remove information need to meet the burden of proof themselves. Madcoverboy's Beatles analogy calls attention to the fact that "highly selective" is often used as a subjective indicator of "better", as seems to be the case here, rather than anything truly empirical. Just my two cents. Let me know if I've missed anything here, but it definitely looks to me like the sources are just being used to support boosterism, and their descriptions imply a certain bias, as well. King of the Arverni (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion[edit]

'Highly selective' is both well referenced as well as a peacock word. According to the guideline, Peacock terms often reflect unqualified opinion, and usually do not help establish the significance of an article. They should be especially avoided in the lead section. Though the term is well-referenced, I suggest removing it from the lead but including it in the body of the article. Even though it is well referenced, I suggest not including it in the lead and note that it is already included in the section "Academics" where it is appropriate. --RegentsPark (My narrowboat) 21:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I concur that it would be more natural to put this "highly selective" designation in the body of the article. I don't think the "highly selective" language needs to be removed altogether though. I, for one, am interested in knowing about such designations so long as they have a citation. I think the sentence including the designation should include a few words about who gave it this label. 129.171.233.79 (talk) 01:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Re-inclusion into introduction[edit]

At least two editors have attempted to reinsert the "highly selective" moniker into the lead despite consensus reached on this talk page and universal consensus elsewhere. Please do not include this empty peacock and booster term into the lead. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

SGA is "first such organization"[edit]

The article says:

Their Self-Government Association, formed in 1892, is the oldest such organization in the United States.

Without further qualification, this appears to be false.[2] I will shortly remove it. —Dominus (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

  1. ^ ‘Sisters’ Colleges See a Bounty in the Middle East
  2. ^ "Woman's Intercollegiate Association for Student Government". The American Educational Review 28 (2): 710. November 1906. Retrieved 2009-06-02. "Originating in Amherst College, the idea of student government spread rapidly in the men's colleges, but in women's colleges it was not tried until some years later, when Wellesley introduced the system of government as an experiment." 


Student government, involving the election of student representatives began at Amherst in 1828, but self-government, giving students responsibility not only for enforcing rules of behavior upon themselves, but also for deciding what those rules should be, did originate at Bryn Mawr in 1892, as is stated all over their website. 12.150.187.98 (talk) 23:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)LFaber 6:21pm 2 February 2012

Please find an independent source confirming this fact. (And it would be good if the source addressed the institutions with long traditions of honor codes as they seem to qualify as "self-government" by your definition.) ElKevbo (talk) 23:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

A Few Quick Things about the M. Carey Thomas Library section?[edit]

In the following overly loquacious post I submit a few suggestions, as although I have long had an account at Wikipedia, I rarely make major edits and do not wish to… cause any upset, if you will.

In the section discussing the M. Carey Thomas Library, the article references Athena and that she is now in Rhys Carpenter. While this is true, the wording implies that there is no Athena in Thomas today. Unless things have changed drastically since my last visit, there is a replica Athena in Thomas. I'm not sure the best way to change the wording of this section to accurately reflect the fact that the original Athena is in Rhys but that there's a replica in Thomas today, given that I have limited experience adopting the tone that is Wikipedia-appropriate.

Also, could we possibly link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena_Lemnia when referencing Athena in this section rather than Athena in general? This article references a specific Athena statue, which is the one that we have at Bryn Mawr. Until a classicist friend told me this, I had a devil of a time trying to figure out which Athena was "our" Athena.

Thirdly, in the little bit at the end of that section where we discuss the Cloisters, it mentions the cremated remains of M. Carey Thomas, but not Emmy Noether, even though she's mentioned as a Bryn Mawr person further down the page, and even though her own article mentions she was buried there. Would it be unreasonable to request her inclusion here as well?

Thank you very much for your kind attention. Batshua (talk) 12:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)