Talk:Butler dynasty

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Article title[edit]

Shouldn't this article be titled Butler family or since that's a disambiguation page, Butler family (Ireland)? Dynasty usually means ruling family. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I took my cue from the article FitzGerald dynasty. It's another Norman family of the same period. The Earldom of Kildare. To change one is to change the other. Besides, the article Butler family is not as specific as this, which is with a specific family. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy with Butler dynasty, although I'm biased, being responsible for the above change (I won an angry battle). In Ireland the situation was unique and these families became semi-royal, although they did not belong to the so-called immemorial nobility paternally, assuming obscure gentry to not count. I don't know what the Butlers think about themselves. The FitzGeralds are convinced they actually graduated to become proper royalty. Some did.
And fine work. I keep leaving the FitzGerald dynasty looking unloved and wish it looked more like this. But this article does need a proper Origins section. DinDraithou (talk) 00:44, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I am new to this and am unfamiliar with the protocols so please bear with me. I am dismayed by the sentence which states "The last Butler quit the castle and Ireland permanently in 1935". Lack of money led to the tragic and profoundly upsetting departure of the family from the home we had occupied since 1391. If there were any other option the Butler family would still reside at the Castle. The use of the word quit has an unfortunate and misleading quality to it in the subject context. I am further dismayed by the suggestion that the Butlers quit Ireland. This statement dishonors centuries of service to the Irish people and the many Butler families living in Ireland today notwithstanding the many Butler families around the world. As a Butler in the Ormonde line I respectfully request that my simple edit stands. Wryteon (talk) 03:29, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

The writer seems to be unaware that the Butler patrimony was acquired with the edge of the sword and maintained with the sword. The service rendered was to an English king, not to the people whom they dispossessed and oppressed for many years. Many of the Ascendancy left while the going was good - or risk reprisals at the hands of the new masters. There was no tragedy in that, only inevitability. The most accurate word in the above plea is "occupied"; the pity is that the writer confines it to just a castle and not the entire territory of the earldom. Occupiers come and go; the people remain. The article is as neutral as possible and more than they deserve probably. Laurel Lodged (talk) 00:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
The word 'occupied' used in the foregoing intended nothing more than the sense of 'living in a home'. The controversial opinion expressed by the subject author in her response goes well beyond what was a request for a simple edit namely, "The Butler family lived in the Castle until 1935." The subject author is entitled to her opinion and is respectfully reminded that others may not share her point of view.Wryteon (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Which part of the Norman invasion of Ireland does Wryteon dispute? I don't remember the part where Ormond or Ossory was deserted and the Normans just moved in unopposed. The article is currently NPOV, painfully so. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:31, 22 February 2014 (UTC)The subject author appears to be no stranger to controversial opinion as the arbitration process and current records of Wikipedia attest.Wryteon (talk) 11:01, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Surrounding kingdoms[edit]

I need to point out that the Eóganacht Chaisil moved out long before the Butlers came. Following the rise of the O'Brien dynasty they retreated south to form the Kingdom of Desmond, and became the famous MacCarthys Mor, MacCarthy Reagh, MacCarthy of Muskerry, O'Sullivan, O'Callaghan, etc. As far as the Osraige they did not lose the entirety of their territory and some of their kings eventually demoted themselves into the Peerage. DinDraithou (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I may have been mislead by a recent reading of the Richard Mor de Burgo article where it states "Before 1225 he married Egidia de Lacy, daughter of Walter de Lacy, and Margaret de Braose. With this alliance he acquired the cantred of Eóghanacht Caisil with the castle of Ardmayle in Tipperary.". I seem to remember that Ardmayle was a Butler castle. Perhaps I had no right to associate the two. Feel free to delete as you have written. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:15, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I've just rember where I saw Ardmayle. It was a Butler all right - the apostate John Butler, 12th Baron Dunboyne!!! Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Completely understandable mistake. The cantred preserved their old sept name long after they had forsaken it. If you want to spend the money on a book that covers this sort of phenomenon I recommend Paul MacCotter's Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions. Dublin: Four Courts Press. 2008. He covers the entire island and it's absolutely worth it, if in some places confusing, which is what Ireland was. He also covers the political structure, tiers of kings, and so on. Coming from the Norman side you may find this invaluable. But the maps totally suck. DinDraithou (talk) 23:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Category[edit]

I've noticed there is no Butler family category. The FitzGeralds have one and I made ones for several of the ancient Irish dynasties, but don't really have the energy now. DinDraithou (talk) 22:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

OK. I'll see what I can do. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Baronets[edit]

I wouldn't go on too much about the Baronets. They should probably all go and stay under See also. Baronet is essentially a non-title. I do not understand why some families even bother to mention they are baronets. Your average otherwise untitled Scottish Chief ranks considerably above one. DinDraithou (talk) 20:21, 7 August 2010 (UTC)