Talk:Byzantine dress

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Fashion (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Fashion, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Fashion on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Greece (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Veils[edit]

I question the section in the artcle which states that the Byzantines invented the veil for women. The Wikipedia article on Veil ascribes it much, much earlier to the Assyrians in the 13th century BC (see here). The Byzantine illustrations I've seen show women with a veil wrapped around their hair (in conformity with the Biblical injunction of Paul I Corinthians), but not with their faces covered. Ancient Roman noble women were also often depicted with their heads (but not their faces) covered. I've read that the Middle Eastern tradition of women covering their faces dates back to the Persians, and from there it was adopted by Muslims. I also question the statements about women's movements being restricted. Byzantine women enjoyed the right to own property, and they had sometimes very strong influence at court (see Theodora, etc.). At a time when rule by women was rejected in the West, the Byzantines had several women who ruled as regents, or even in their own right (see Empress Irene). I think this section is in error (it is certainly unsourced) and should be removed--but I'm not enough of an expert to feel comfortable removing it myself. Does anyone have any helpful input on this subject? MishaPan (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The veil article is useless for this purpose as it makes no attempt to distinguish between head veiling and face-veiling, which is what this article is talking about. Byzantine women only wore veils in the street, and are therefore unlikely to be depicted with a face veil - plus artists don't like doing this. I can't remember the sourcing situation & will look into it - it certainly came from somewhere. I don't really see a contradiction in the general statements about womens' position - Empresses are always likely to be in a different position. Nor is "At a time when rule by women was rejected in the West" entirely accurate. Do you have any sources youyrself? Johnbod (talk) 20:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Refs now added. The Angold should be available online, and is worth reading. Johnbod (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Giving (dis)credit for the veiling of women to a western culture is undoubtedly politically correct but probably inaccurate. Most likely it was Persia. Greek women were indeed somewhat circumscribed in their movements, in theory. Contemporary witnesses suggest that practice was something else again. Women were praised for NOT leaving their homes, suggesting strongly that most did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.218.77 (talk) 20:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead picture[edit]

Johnbod :About the Martyrs dress do you mean that he is wearing a sheer layer with a brown border/trim over the blue tunic?Pselv11 (talk) 06:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that the blue and the brown are different garments; at the bottom the folds in the blue don't continue in the brown. I admit on the sleeves the brown looks more like a border to the blue. What do you think? I don't mind just saying "several layers". Johnbod (talk) 15:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


The only reason I think he might be wearing 4 layers is because I don't see the white mosaic on the sleeve. But I have seen several byzantine tunics with close fitting sleeves with cuffs of the same trim as the hem. like these : http://www.costumes.org/history/racinet/new/byzantine181.jpg http://www.german-hosiery-museum.de/geschichte/einzelseiten/Bild04_05.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Meister_der_Kahriye-Cami-Kirche_in_Istanbul_005.jpg

Also I haven't seen any byzantine pics with the under tunic peeping out of a close-fitting over tunic.Pselv11 (talk) 21:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't worry too much about the 19th century ones! I suppose if the fringe is embroidered the folds might not carry down through it. Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

File:Kremlin Armoury 008.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Kremlin Armoury 008.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Slaves, carrying a noble woman from the Chronicle of John Skylitzes.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Slaves, carrying a noble woman from the Chronicle of John Skylitzes.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 28 February 2012
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Slaves, carrying a noble woman from the Chronicle of John Skylitzes.jpg)

This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2012 (UTC)