Talk:CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder

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Former good article nominee CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder was a Warfare good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
February 24, 2009 Good article nominee Not listed
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Richard Aboulafia[edit]

Richard Aboulafia said, "The JF-17 is an obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for the Pakistan market, which values numbers over actual combat effectiveness." http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-china-awaits-fighter-export-breakthrough-373313/

What's wrong with directly quoting Aboulafia? His quote neatly explains the limited market for the aircraft. And using a direct quote makes it clear that the comment is entirely his opinion. And if he isn't a reliable and notable source then why not remove him from those other twenty articles on aviation topics? Hcobb (talk) 03:27, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
The quote is entirely inappropriate for the lead section. It may be more suited to the body of the text, but even there, as ti appears to be solely a personal opinion it may be problematic - after all there will be plenty of quotes out there praising the JF-17 - and remember "Quantity has a quality all its own".Nigel Ish (talk) 09:08, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

At the moment what we have done is taken one person's statement of opinion and magically broadened it into a general conception that the aircraft has no market, and we give no reason for this. How is this NPOV? Hcobb (talk) 15:02, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

It does not belong in the lede. It can go elsewhere in the article but needs not to be up top. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
It was removed from the lead section, and moved to the potential customers section. Anir1uph (talk) 18:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Single person opinions still need to follow WP:DUE even if they are from experts. --lTopGunl (talk) 12:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Is Aboulafia due or not? This is exactly the sort of "professional opinion" he gets quoted for in other av articles. If we won't quote him here, then why quote him elsewhere? Hcobb (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • UNDUE. Including myself, Nigel Ish, TopGun, The Bushranger and Anir1uph... that makes 5 of us telling you the same thing and you've been cautioned by me before on this issue of yours. Yet, here you are doing the same thing, again... are you really that hard up for a good review at WP:Requests for comment/User conduct? We can make your wish come true, just say so. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 16:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Is Aboulafia undue in the other articles then? Hcobb (talk) 18:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC) ...First, WP:OTHERSTUFF, secondly, it is undue in.the.lede.. It can be mentioned as an opinion lower in the article, but not in the lede. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I moved the reference down to related material in the article and I don't think anybody has a problem with that. It's the follow-up edit that turned the quote of one person into a general unexplained feeling by field experts in general that I find odd. Hcobb (talk) 23:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Hcobb, please show some decency by giving credit to Anir1uph, for he is the one who moved it down into a much more appropriate section. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 00:15, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder&diff=prev&oldid=501170626

This is the edit where I moved it down to the Pakistan purchases, because the quote is about the suitability of the aircraft for the Pakistani market. Hcobb (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I did not move it to the lead, or in the potential customers section. Hcobb did (and i believe rightly so). I reverted its explained removal. Both the versions of that text i.e with the author mentioned, and a general statement, seem fine to me. I think this text (in one form or the other) is important as it add to the neutrality of the article. Thanks! Anir1uph (talk) 22:02, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

IMHO, Aboulafia is best used as a source on aviation marketing rather than for highly technical issues. What he's saying is that the JF-17 is being positioned for sales as a cheap high performance aircraft that is two generations back from the state of the art. So it isn't looking to take sales from either the very low end armed trainers or modern 4th generation jet fighters like the F-15/16/18-E/Fs or Rafael. It's more a Mig-21 replacement fighter for countries that need to show speed, but don't have the money or connections for the good stuff. Does anybody see his comments or expertise differently? Hcobb (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

JF 17 Block III ???? Really...???[edit]

I dont know from where did the fanboys get the info about a block 3... No such thing is on the cards.. The cited article is a self published source (WP:SPS) and unreliable. I request the mods to remove the mistake or provide citation from reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.235.126.234 (talk) 10:31, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

National origin[edit]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/catic-targets-300-jf-17-sales-in-five-years-372402/ China hopes to sell up to 300 Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) JF-17 Thunder fighters in Africa and the Middle East over the next five years.

The only sources I have been able to find that list Pakistan first as for national origin have been from Pakistani sources. Everybody else lists China first, as above. Hcobb (talk) 18:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-6138-China-backs-Pak-moves-to-safeguard-its-security The Chinese government did not agree with a proposal from Pakistan for selling JF-17 multi-purpose fighter planes produced by Pakistan and China jointly. Pakistan has received offers for the sale of the planes about four times more than what these planes cost Pakistan. The Chinese have asked Pakistan not to sell the planes before the expiry of 10 years of the production of the same.

That's an example of how it is reported inside Pakistan. Hcobb (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

New information to add to article[edit]

  • A Pakistani civilian aerospace engineer, currently working at the National University for Science and Technology (NUST), won an award from Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute (CADI) for "valuable contribution as JF-17 design team member from 2004 to 2006." The same engineer was also recognised by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for "distinguished service and valuable contribution during structure testing by JF-17 joint team." This proves that there is some undisclosed work done during the project by one or more Pakistani civilian engineers, at least during the structural testing of the aircraft. Reference: [NUST College of Aeronautical Engineering (CAE) faculty achievements webpage.]
  • According to a November 2012 Aviation Week article by Bill Sweetman: after "the JF-17 Production in Pakistan started in 2005 and the first locally built aircraft rolled out in November 2009... the type's performance “exceeded expectations,” leading to a decision to perform tests and introduce it into service in parallel." This proves that the aircraft's test programme was still ongoing while the serial production aircraft were being manufactured. Reference: [China’s Warplane Industry Expands "China's warplane industry expands."]
    • Aviation Week article also mentions that while the JF-17 acquisition cost is around "one third to one fourth" of any other modern combat aircraft, the operating cost is also similarly low.

Hj108 (talk) 22:07, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

GAN[edit]

How can you nominate an article for GA when it isnt even B-class?--Petebutt (talk) 08:44, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21[edit]

Since this aircraft is a development of the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, why isn't this mentioned even once?

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/715bb9297261

Hcobb (talk) 04:44, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

It's clearly mentioned that it's a development of the J-7, which, as the bloviating blog you've linked to states, is the Chinese version of the MiG-21. Is that not enough? - BilCat (talk) 05:36, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
What this article actually says is "for joint design and development of a new fighter" which makes it seem like it isn't a retread of a 60 year old design. Hcobb (talk) 06:52, 22 March 2014 (UTC)