Talk:Canada

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Discussion of Canada's official name

Canada's name
Official Name 1

Future TFA paragraph

Main Page

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2014[edit]

I don't understand why the coat of arms of Canada aren't shown on Canada's page, where as it is shown on all other countries' pages. Would it be possible to add it?

Thank you 166.62.235.122 (talk) 22:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done — Unfortunately, no:(. There are copyright issues that keep us from using the coat of arms, or any (reasonable) representation of the coat of arms. We *can* make up our own coat of arms that has the same basic elements in it, but drawn in whatever form we want. However, this has been deemed to be unacceptable many times in the past due to the fact that it would be an exceptionally poor - or even outright misleading - representation of the actual coat of arms. So no, we can't have the coat of arms on this page. Blame Ottawa. It's their fault. — Gopher65talk 23:06, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest in this topic though! It's always nice to see new editors:). — Gopher65talk 23:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
If it's not shown on this article for copyright reasons, why is it shown on this one? Illegitimate Barrister 23:58, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Please see File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg#Fair use rationale -- Moxy (talk) 01:36, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Or in short, you can discuss Canada without using a picture of the Coat of Arms, but you can't discuss Canada's Coat of Arms without using a picture of the Coat of Arms. WilyD 10:32, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Has the Crown specifically taken action against Wikipedia for its use of the Coat of Arms? Or was this noticed as an error, and removed of our own accord? Also, would it be possible to include a link to the Coat of Arms page in place of where the Coat of Arms image would normally go? I realize that one in provided in the motto section of the infobox, although people who are looking for the Coat of Arms will be expecting to see it to the right of the National Flag. Breaker 355 (talk) 17:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No. We are bound to follow the law. I don't know if we could include a link without inlcluding an image. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Can we use this one? I mean, it's used on the "Monarchy of Canada" article so why not here? Illegitimate Barrister 20:56, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
You may use it anywhere but on this article. It's not an accurate representation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, if it's not an accurate representation, why is it allowed to be used on other articles? Illegitimate Barrister 15:27, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Because other stuff exists. Editors of other pages have different criteria for inclusion. The consensus here is correctness and accuracy. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:43, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Alright, fair enough. Illegitimate Barrister 18:17, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Just want to clarify: Unless the Government of Canada changes their copyright law, there is absolutely no way we can add the official rendition of the Coat of Arms? Under the current circumstances, this article will forever not be able include Canada's Coat of Arms...on the article titled Canada? Have we actually exhausted all our options? Nations United (talk) 23:32, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
There's two options here. We can petition the Canadian government and ask them for their permission and consent to upload the official coat of arms to the Wikimedia Commons. Option two: Wait for the crown copyright to expire. It's usually 50 years from the date of publication, so that would be some time in 2044. Illegitimate Barrister 05:29, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

info on postcodes needed[edit]

pages that describe a country should have information about their postcodes or have a link to one such page 210.49.196.162 (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

There is the article Postal codes in Canada that could be linked to. I only had time for a brief scan of the Canada article, which didn't put me in mind of any obvious place to put the link. Perhaps someone else will have better luck. Willondon (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Coat of Arms[edit]

Where are Canada´s coat of Arms?? Could somebody please re-add them? --37.219.203.167 (talk) 12:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Please see the discussion a few lines up from this. The coat of arms can't be added to this article for copyright reasons. It can only be used on the Coat of Arms article. — Gopher65talk 15:16, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
How about we use one of the former coats of arms then, since they're public domain? Would that be acceptable or not? Or how about this one? Illegitimate Barrister 18:16, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
How would it in any way be accurate and representative of the actual coat? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
From a heraldic standpoint (going by the written description of the coat of arms), it is accurate, even if it is not 100% identical to the version used by the Canadian government. Illegitimate Barrister 15:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
From a visual representation, it looks like something my children would have created. It's not accurate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
By saying that, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of heraldry. Heraldry isn't based on images, it's based on blazons. As the long as the depiction follows the blazon it's still correct, regardless of minor artistic variations. For example this and this are equally correct as depictions of the British royal arms, even though they vary superficially. If you read the blazon of the Canadian royal arms, you would see that it matches the depiction linked to above. Zacwill16 (talk) 02:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry that you think I don't understand heraldry. That's not untrue. I have a background and graphic arts and all I can say is that it's a poor image.
Speaking of misunderstanding, WP:OVERLINK is something you should bone up on. I reverted your change because of that and because you can't simply impose your will on the article after you have seen consensus is against it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:01, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Can you explain what you mean when you say I've breached WP:OVERLINK? I didn't add any links to the article. As to the quality of the image, true it's not amazing, but it's the only one available to us. Surely it's better to have a lesser-quality image than no image at all. Zacwill16 (talk) 12:29, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I stand correct. You made the second edit and I saw the diff of both. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
As to my second point- do you agree that it's acceptable to use an image which is artistically inferior, but still correct? Zacwill16 (talk) 15:28, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
If the infobox required a coat of arms then it would be acceptable. Since it does not, and we have the option, I would say it's like saying, would you rather have flaming sticks jabbed into your eyes? It's a false dichotomy. A poor quality representation is fine if it must be represented and no free option exists, however since we have the option not to, and consensus is against that poorly rendered version, then we should not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I think you're severely overstating the poor quality of the image. Yes, it's not as attractive as the other version, but it's not all that ugly and it's still undeniably correct. The article would be vastly improved by at least some representation of the Canadian royal arms; as it is, it seems to suggest that Canada has none. Zacwill16 (talk) 22:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Until that statement I severely understated the lack of quality. That statement simply understated the poor quality of it. I would sooner see a scan of a freehand representation by a ten-year-old child—the age in my province where they begin to discuss matters of federal politics and history—instead of the approximation that is represented by that image. No offence intended to the heraldry fan who composed it, but it does not meet the quality and finesse of the official crest. Again, that's speaking from a graphic design viewpoint, not one of heraldry. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
At any rate, this is all subjective. You personally finding it ugly is not a valid reason for excluding a perfectly correct image. Zacwill16 (talk) 23:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
True and if that were my only argument I would not have stated others as well. To recap:
  1. It's not a pleasing representation.
  2. It's not a misrepresentation of the officially approved crest.
  3. It's not necessary to have a coat of arms.
  4. Other editors do not want it in the article. (CONSENSUS should be enough, but doesn't appear to be)
We understand your position, but it will likely be removed if it's added by you or any other editor. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Very well, I give up. All I can say is that this is what happens when authority lies with people who don't know what they're talking about. Zacwill16 (talk) 00:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
In terms of not knowing what editors are talking about, we can leave that aside for now. This is not a discussion about heraldry, which I think is the point that is tripping you up. Whether or not the image in question is "heraldically correct" or not is completely irrelevant and is a red herring. At any given time, there is only one 'legally' correct design, and it is the one approved by the Queen. The Government of Canada has used a different design in the past as their "official" design, and various others have use differing designs to represent the same thing, but that does not make them the approved design. Notice that I make no reference to the blazon, as it has no bearing on the argument at this point. Heraldry vs an authorised symbol (specific design) of state. trackratte (talk) 00:44, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
We should never mislead readers passing off non official symbols as the real thing. -- Moxy (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I understand, Moxy. I was just wondering why it was allowed on other articles and not this one, that's all. Illegitimate Barrister 18:17, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree that it should not be depicted at all. Also, there is a difference between being heraldically correct and legally correct or official. In this case the Queen of Canada signed on and approved a specific design (the painted picture) which was based on a blazon. A random rendition which conforms with the blazon but not the design is heraldically correct yes, but that is a red herring. We're not talking about what is heraldically correct here, we are talking about a specific and legally designated coat of arms design. trackratte (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Do you have a source for the Queen of Canada choosing this specific illustration as the sole correct interpretation of the blazon? Zacwill16 (talk) 22:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
If there is a good editorial reason for adding any version of the royal coat of arms or the full blazon to this article, what is it? My personal view as a reader is that it is not needed here. Qexigator (talk) 22:07, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
+The flag is used above for 'Canadian English', and the maple leaf for Canadian portal, not the Arms. Qexigator (talk) 09:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Zac, if you look at the web sources it will say 'personally approved by the Queen'. If you look at the original documents of any coat of arms which depicts the Royal Crown, you will see the signature "Approved Elizabeth II" signed by the Queen. These documents contain a very specific design, and it is this design which is used. You can see this the most through military units and Colleges, which all depict the Royal Crown. While anyone can render their own interpretation of a military crest, or the Queen's own arms, they are just that, "heraldically correct" interpretations, they do not constitute the 'real thing' simply by being heraldically correct.
While the government of Canada could use any design it chose to, at any time, what makes a certain design 'legal' is the Queen's signature. For example, the current design was used informally prior to 1994 from what I've heard, but the modification was personally approved by the Queen in 1994. Even then, the Government of Canada continued to use the 1957 version until the early 2000s, so for nearly a decade the Government of Canada was using a version as a Governmental symbol which was no longer the personal arms of the sovereign (and therefore the specific Arms of State) approved for use in that capacity at that time. trackratte (talk) 22:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Heraldry is based on blazons not images. All grants of arms will include the blazon first and foremost. An illustration of the arms may also appear, but this is just the artist's personal interpretation of the blazon, and does not mean that all subsequent illustrations must look identical; as long as they follow the blazon they are legally and heraldically correct. The reason the Queen had to approve the design in 1994 was that the blazon was actually changed: the circlet of the Order of Canada was added. The fact that the Government chose to adopt a new interpretation of the blazon had nothing to do with it. They could adopt a new interpretation at any time, and it would still be legal if it followed the blazon. Zacwill16 (talk) 23:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
We are not talking about heraldry. This discussion has nothing to do with the blazon. We are talking about a specific design. trackratte (talk) 00:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
What? We're talking about a coat of arms; the science of coats of arms is known as heraldry. And this discussion has everything to do with the blazon. the specific design you're referring to is one of many possible and equally legitimate interpretations of an official blazon. Zacwill16 (talk) 01:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
It would be as well to remember that in the case of a coat of arms or blazon, questions of the fitness of its 'design' or a version or rendering of it, or the legality of the use of any version or rendering, are inseparable from heraldry. Qexigator (talk) 01:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
There is only one legal version of the coat of arms. That is quite separable from heraldry: it's law. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I do not see that comment as making sense in terms of a) heraldry and b) law. Can you explain, having regard to the legal status of the College of Arms and the Canadian Heraldic Authority and of arms granted or regulated by them under the Crown. On second thoughts, none of this is about improving the article, so better not. Qexigator (talk) 02:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Conflict. @Qex: No, they are not, like any symbol, photograph, design, or picture. Heraldric considerations are separate from the Arms of the Queen as a legal, and legally protected, design. There is only one flag of Canada (as a very specific design). An interpretation of the flag based on the blazon is fine in heraldry, it would be "heraldically correct" interpretation of the flag of canada, but it would not be the Flag of Canada. I don't think anyone is discussing whether or not this image is good to go from a purely heraldic point of view. It would be like placing a flag of Canada with a "natural" maple leaf on the Canada page as the Flag of Canada. It would be bogus, and no one would care whether or not it's "heraldically correct" or not. trackratte (talk) 01:44, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
While I remain unpersuaded that such comments are on the mark, please see reply to WG above. Qexigator (talk) 02:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Correct terminology[edit]

I have changed the structural description from "federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy" to federated parliamentary constitutional monarchy. This makes it absolutely clear that both Canada federally and its Provinces are parliamentary constitutional monarchies. Paul63243 (talk) 16:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Clarification[edit]

While it is technically true that official English-French bilingualism only prevails federally and in New Brunswick, it is misleading to suggest that is the extent of English-French bilingualism in Canada, so I have observed the extent of English-French bilingualism in Canada's other Provinces. For example, signage on Queen's Highway 401 in southwestern Ontario, but also on Queen's Highways throughout the Province of Ontario. Radio-Canada, the French-language service of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, broadcasts nationwide via television and radio. The televised proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario are in realtime translated into French. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority maintains a full-time French-language television service. Product labelling for all products sold in stores are required to be printed in English and in French.

Also, the fact that Canada is both a Commonwealth Realm and a member of the Commonwealth of Nations.

Also that the Prime Minister of Canada is the functional and true chief executive, even though it is also constitutionally true that Elizabeth II is Canada's head of state, represented by her Viceroy.

Paul63243 (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the effort ..but I think is best not to put an odd note in the lead (as we try to avoid this in FA articles). Its clear that its says federal level in the lead and is explained in-detail in the section called language that is sourced for people to learn even more. Perhaps more could be said in that section. I have also move that stat info to the body of the article....as its best not to go into specifics in the lead that would need sources (MOS:INTRO). Anyone else have thoughts on this?? -- Moxy (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


I have reverted the over complicated additions with odd notes for the third time ...can we get others to comment on these to version. And get Paul to get consensus for the major overhaul of the lead. -- Moxy (talk) 01:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Federal vs federated[edit]

I would argue that "Government Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy" looks right, but "Government Federated parliamentary constitutional monarchy" is probably grammatically correct. Comments? Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree ,,,if the word is linked I guess its ok. The problem in the past is that people have linked Federated identity when they see the word "Federated".... .. I dont know why that happens but I have seen it a few times. -- Moxy (talk) 16:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
How is federal grammatically incorrect? - it appears to be the term most commonly used. TFD (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
It is not a question of what is grammatically correct. It is a question of what is terminologically correct. The word federal pertains to the federal level of Canadian government, and not the provincial level. But the description of the totality of the Canadian state as being federated between a federal government and provincial governments is most terminologically correct. Both the federal Government and the Provincial Governments are parliamentary constitutional monarchies; therefore, the entirety of the Canadian federation, in terms of the entirety of its governments collectively, are best described as being "federated", as in a "federated parliamentary constitutional monarchy". To be clear, the word federated terminologically includes all federal and provincial governments in relation to one another. The word federal in this context, by contrast, refers to the federal level, and to the exclusion of the provincial level--which his not the context meant to be expressed.
The Canadian state is federated between a federal government and provincial governments. Therefore, only the federal government of Canada is properly referred to as a "federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy", and this tells only part of the structural story in its complete context--which is why federated parliamentary constitutional monarchy is correct and federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy is not correct. Please try to stay calm, and place your trust in the synthesis of a diversity of ideas based in a superior level of familiarity with structural understanding in this context and with effectiveness of terminological expression. I promise you, I in return, very much value the diversity of opinion--that is, I am not always right. I just happen to be, in this particular instance. Paul63243 (talk) 00:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Wow. When you you say "terminologically" rather than "semantically" you lose my respect for any expertise you may claim. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I cant get him back to the tlak page...just keeps reverting. Get we get others to look at these edits...see what can be saved. We now have sources and odd notes/exmpales and sentances starting with the word And...basiclly not good additions for the lead of an FA article. -- Moxy (talk) 01:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The use of the word semantics suggests that the federal-federated distinction is de minimis to the point of insignificance. It's not. The Canadian state is the sum total of its federal and provincial governments, with the subject-matter-areas split as set forth in sections 91 and 92 of the Constitution Act, 1867. You're essentially insisting that the sum total of the Canadian state is the federal goverment only--which is, quite simply, wrong. It seems to me that you possess the power to enforce that assertion--but if you do, you will be promulgating and perpetuating misinformation. Paul63243 (talk) 01:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok so that's one word we can talk about...but about the lead overhaul. I have raised the concerns that its overly detailed for the lead. The lead has no need for information that has to be sourced....info of that nature can be in the body. There is also no need for examples in notes in the lead for info on language as this is covered in the body later with sources for people to learn more....in my opinion. So lets let others chime-in before we edit war again ok?? Can some of the info be moved to the body ???-- Moxy (talk) 01:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)